8492nd

Do you still like Celestia?

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6 hours ago, Number95 said:

You really don't feel the need to see a non-Twilight alicorn zap a bad guy? :P

I wouldn't mind it, but I don’t even feel the need to see Twilight zap a bad guy. It’s really not why I watch this show.

Though unlike the mane six, a straightforward adventure episode could do a lot to build the other alicorns’ personalities... hmm. 

6 hours ago, Number95 said:

The constant "worfing" makes Twilight's effectiveness inauthentic since it's really just Princess Celestia looking bad to make Twilight look good.

Do you just mean villain encounters? More often than not, I feel like Twilight basically stumbles through those, at best figuring out some plan last minute (“A Canterlot Wedding”) and at worst only succeeding because some magic artifact happened to fall into her hands (“Twilight’s Kingdom”). The exceptions are almost always the ones where Celestia outright wasn’t present (“The Cutie Map”).

Edited by Thrond

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Necessary pre-suppositions: (1) Defining your terminology is key, as many terms mean different things. Therefore, the definition of being hyper-critical is "Excessively and unreasonably critical, especially of small faults." - Oxford Dictionaries. (2) I'm not biased – sure, I like Celestia, but I love other princesses more than her, and she isn't exactly on my favorites list. (3) I'm not hating, so don't say that I tore down peoples' opinions because I don't agree with them – I don't agree with some of them, but I'm tearing them down because they are wrong, and that is not an opinion. 

Opening Paragraph 

A good amount of these comments are saying that Celestia is a poorly written character, as she is put as on a high and mighty position as 'supreme leader' of Equestria but in reality she fails to live up to these standards and the writers fail to indicate that she has great magical abilities. I do agree with these comments to some extent, but I must point out some errors some of you are making. First, some of you seem to be utilizing what I like to call 'hyper-criticism'. You are not, however, being critical of small faults, but you are still being over-critical regardless. 

Hyper-Criticism 

Example of hyper-criticism: Celestia is a terrible character, as the writers do not indicate in any way that she is a powerful being nor great at being a high and mighty leader, and even season 7 episode 10  which attempts to show Celestia's legitimacy as a political leader fails to fully show her power. Furthermore, Celestia is unintentionally depicted as weak and unhelpful in most of the two-part episodes (like season 6 finale, season 2 finale, etc.). 

This example shows how this type of hyper-criticism is both legitimate and non-legitimate.  

Hyper-criticism being non-legitimate in this situation

It is non-legitimate because the writers are not attempting to show Celestia as weak and unhelpful, and to say differently is to impose a different and false meaning on the scenario even though you got a different impression-which you didn't by the way, as I see in the comments.  

Let me give you two additional examples of the negatives of hyper-criticism and its errors - (1) (disclaimer: I am using an example, not a real event – I never watched Rich and Morty) I say to Rick that Morty is stupid because Morty said it himself, but in reality Morty called himself stupid on purpose in order to promote the reason he gave previously why people shouldn't buy his cookies. In the end, Rick hates me because even though I clearly knew what was going on and why Morty called himself stupid, I still gave an over-analyzed and incorrect view that Morty is stupid, disregarding the CONTEXT. (2) Let's put this in our scenario: you are telling me that Celestia is weak and unhelpful, yet this is clearly not what the writers intended to depict and the context says that a point was being make to show that the enemy is really powerful – you back up your point with reasoning, saying that this is consistently used and Celestia consistently fails, indicating that Celestia really is weak and unhelpful; but this is not infallible, because 'correlation does not equal causation', along with the context disproving your statement.

Hyper-criticism and Criticism being legitimate in this situation

It is legitimate because it is not entirely hyper-criticism. With the impression you got that Celestia is weak and unhelpful, you can lecture the writers. Even though they clearly did not mean to give this impression, it was given anyways, which means that they should consider changing a few things. They should stop consistently using Celestia as an easy target that hardly put on a fight, as this can give that impression. They don't have to make her do something godly though, like slay 500,000 legions of orcs with just her bare hoofs-they don't have to make her Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. Why, you may ask? Simply because she is a side character, which means that no matter what we are not going to get a major focus on Celestia in every single episode she appears in. Furthermore, not making her like Zeus wouldn't harm her character in any way (nor would it help, but this isn't your TV show, so let them do what they want with it). Actually, the writers have openly indicated that Celestia is a powerful being, but it appears that you all dismiss as inadequate, ignore, or leave out those god-like signs; you are giving the negative facts but disregarding the positive, which results in or is a symptom of hyper-criticism. 

Proving Celestia's Worth and Debunking Negative Views on Her 

 Fact 1: Celestia controls the sun, and she can control the moon if need be; therefore, she is like the god Apollo (god of the sun)-this alone should be satisfactory. I know the storm king and Twilight did this, but only did it because they had Celestia's magic. I know that the unicorns raised the sun and moon according to the hearth's warming story, but that was pre-equestria. It didn't say that all the unicorns could do it - there could have been a supreme unicorn unspoken of that did such and was unmentioned because the story was passed down from generation to generation and this part was confused and then forgotten. The point is that hyper-criticism is once more being used to prove something that isn't intended, nor is fully evident. 

Fact 2: she rules Equestria, and has held this position for more than 1,000 years (as indicated by Luna's imprisonment). The writers didn't have to make an episode to prove her political power (season 7 episode 10), but since they did, this adds emphasis on my point. 

Fact 3: Celestia does not have a special and unique ability (aside from raising the sun) such as Luna's ability to go into dreams, but this doesn't mean she doesn't have one and never will. Absence of a concept does not impose its contrary meaning as true. 

Fact 4: she was taught by Starswirl – that means she could be a terrible student and learned absolutely nothing, learned a fair amount but doesn't exercise it in public, or she is holding back and refuses to resort to her destructive capabilities – it could mean various other things, but I don't see anyone in the comments even mentioning the potentials or considering this fact. 

Fact 5: You get my point. Don't just bluntly ignore the facts. To demand even more evidence from Celestia that she is even better than this is like expecting Rainbow Dash to be more than just a Wonderbolt (see season 6 episode 7 and observe the moral of the story). 

Additional Clarification and My Personal Theory 

Even though I tore down hyper-criticism, I never said that it or criticism in general should not be used. You should still express the positive side - the side that is known as constructive criticism – as for hyper-criticism, I would personally try to stay away from it. I'm not roasting you all for expressing the facts, but you all are taking them out of context and out of their original meanings (what the writers intended to communicate). Also, I am not tearing down speculation or opinions. This is why I theorize that Celestia is a god-like being, but she is only hiding her power because if it was to be fully used, then Equestria would not be able to cope with it and thus explode into oblivion-and when she loses to evil villains, it is because she is allowing a lesser evil to threaten Equestria rather than use her greater evil and her god-mode that will instantly eliminate Equestria from existence (Daybreaker) to stop them (just a theory). You can boringly go on and say how horrible she is, but I'm sticking to my over-exaggerated and ultra-over-the-top theory. In the end, I'm pointing out that one shouldn't take Celestia as weak, unhelpful, and a bad character as canon, fact, or even logical and firm because of its fallibility and relation to hyper-criticism. However, "I have not yet began to fight!" (John Paul Jones) – it's time for comment replies.  

Comment Replies 

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:43 AM, 8492nd said:

But I've been seeing accusations that after 7-8 years of waiting for her to be in the spotlight, she's treated like sh(yay)t.

Celestia is a side character, she will rarely be in the spotlight; and when she is, it doesn't last too long. 

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, Metemponychosis said:

As far as personality is concerned, I think all Celestia needs are a few chances to show some greatness, competence and presence, in a story that is about her, not one where she's serving the stage for another character.

It would be nice to see this – for her to be in spotlight more often, but she already has shown greatness, competence, and presence. Alas, I must trouble you with more lists.

1.Celestia is a great leader (showing greatness), as she has held Equestria together since she began to reign. Let me explain. She used the elements when necessary (Nightmare Moon, Discord). she brought Twilight and her friends together in order to help Twilight, which resulted in the protection of Equestria from various enemies – without this decision on Celestia's part, the result could have been disastrous for Equestria. She has resolved many political issues each day, indicated by season 7 episode 10. I could go on, but you get the point – she is a backstage heroin, assisting in the small but significant details that in the end decide the very fate of Equestria. 

2.She has competence: no nation can withstand Equestria's defense because of what Celestia has began – she has efficiently established a concrete nation capable of defending itself even without a ruler (see MLP movie). Each and every day she persists in taking on the difficult tasks of a princess once again seen in season 7 episode 10.  She has raised up a grat and mighty leader (Twilight) who in return is raising up another great and might leader (Starlight) - this is an amazing chain reaction, as if this continues Equestria will be defended for generations if Celestia departs. 

3.Celestia has presence. Just because she is not seen don't mean she is not there. Like I said previously, she works behind the scenes. We don't see her working, but we see the results of her work. What more can you ask for?  

I know, you want her to be in the spotlight, but she isn't a spotlight character. Just look at the time and effort made to make her sister some pancakes regardless of whether or not she actually eats them – if it isn't hard to make pancakes, then it is hard to repeatedly do so every day when they go to waste because of rejection. If you look hard enough, you will see that Celestia doesn't need to be in the spotlight to be a great character. Oh, I just made a new genre of characters – backstage ponies (entirely different from background ponies). 

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:07 PM, Number95 said:

I liked what Celestia could've been because she seems very kind yet mysterious and capable of kicking ass since she's an alicorn, but that's not what happened in the show.

She is still capable of kicking that stuff, and it still can happen in the show. Don't make unnecessary conclusions. 

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:07 PM, Number95 said:

If anything, the show is more interested in showing what she can't do instead of what she can do.

The show is interested in the mane six, Starlight and her friends, etc. - it does not center around Celestia. "Friendship is Magic" not "Celestia is Magic".

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:22 AM, Number95 said:

but it's stupid that the show puts her on a pedestal while never following through.

Some things are better left a secret, which adds to the suspense of things. If Celestia never reveals her true powers, then we are left wondering what she really is capable of. Why are you assuming they don't want anything to do with her? For all you know, she could be the ultimate good that conquers all evil at the end of season 9 – anything is possible. 

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:22 AM, Number95 said:

There are few things I hate more than wasted potential, and wasted potential is the first thing I think of with MLP:FIM.

Chill. The writers have 22 minutes per episode to get a point across, and side characters don't show up for long periods of time anyways. If you hate wasted potential, then MLP shouldn't be the first thing you think of. Three word my friend: 'Supreme Leader Snoke' - the biggest piece of trash that Star Wars ever made. 

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 3:59 PM, Pain said:

that sense of mystery is intriguing in my opinion

This is what should be going through everyone's head! They didn't reveal it; therefore, so much potential can come and lead to speculation, theories, opinions, and more! 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:17 PM, Pain said:

you're jumping to conclusions before looking at things from both points of view

Profound truth! This is better than some of the things some philosophers have said. 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:53 PM, Friendship is Horses said:

I just want to see her do something epic once in a while.

You see her do something epic every day – raise the sun – your average pony couldn't do that. 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:15 PM, Number95 said:

I can't think of anything they could do at this point to improve her.

Never underestimate the power of continuity; but she really isn't that broken to begin with.

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:15 PM, Number95 said:

They could instead make more episodes where she actually gets to be a character instead of a plot device and give viewers some insight into her, but her unintentionally negative appearances are still stuck with her.

She is more than just a plot device, she is a mentor, leader, etc. - the show just doesn't reveal much on the matter. Her 'unintentionally negative appearances' are actually intentionally positive that happen to be misinterpreted. 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:15 PM, Number95 said:

The constant "worfing" makes Twilight's effectiveness inauthentic since it's really just Princess Celestia looking bad to make Twilight look good.

Its purpose it to make the villain look good, and if Celestia doesn't fail at stopping the said villain, then you have Celestia as all that is needed; thus, 'friendship is not magic' but 'Celestia is magic'. If Celestia succeeds, she becomes the main character, the mane six fade into the background for at least one episode and no one else is no longer the center of the episode. What they should do is for at least one episode have a balance of both Celestia and the mane six plus Starlight's team that all play major roles in stopping the villain, not one above the others. Furthermore, Twilight isn't always the main objective of the plot – you are missing the points. 

Conclusion 

Anyways, in conclusion, I'm open to further thoughts and considerations, and if I'm wrong on anything (this is a long comment so mistakes are possible), then please correct me - I'm not dogmatic in all of my points in this comment. I never intended to channel hate against the fandom in this debate, and I'm not disagreeing with opinions on Celestia to some extent – I'm just presenting the facts. Sorry for the long comment (or research paper, XD) that is roughly 2,545 words of both others' comments and my own, but I think it was necessary. If this doesn't convince you to lighten up on your view of Celestia, then Celestia doesn't raise the sun. Another thing - sorry for bringing lightning to the thunderstorm, but it had to be done by someone because the thunderstorm is heading in the wrong direction. 

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@AnalyticalGamerAssume that I agree with anything I don't mention. At least for now.  This is already going to be a long read for some people's standards.

Speaking of standards, what would you tell me if I said that your claim of my 'hyper-criticism' stems from your own lack of criticism? Because, since we are different individuals, with different points of view and different references to compare and draw conclusions about the show, what is the point of arguing that someone is too critical, or not critical enough of something? It becomes opinions about opinions, rather than a conversation on the subject. It's also a typical shut-up tactic.

2 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

It is non-legitimate because the writers are not attempting to show Celestia as weak and unhelpful, and to say differently is to impose a different and false meaning on the scenario even though you got a different impression-which you didn't by the way, as I see in the comments.  

I actually agree to that, and that is the reason I still like her. This doesn't mean that their final work is either good or can't be made better.

2 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

I say to Rick that Morty is stupid because Morty said it himself, but in reality Morty called himself stupid on purpose in order to promote the reason he gave previously why people shouldn't buy his cookies. In the end, Rick hates me because even though I clearly knew what was going on and why Morty called himself stupid, I still gave an over-analyzed and incorrect view that Morty is stupid, disregarding the CONTEXT.

It is the narrative's job to give you this information. And it's the writer's job to ensure that the narrative is clear about it, at least enough that you can't make two opposing interpretations true, regardless of their intention. If the narrative doesn't do that, then the writer has failed.

2 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Let's put this in our scenario: you are telling me that Celestia is weak and unhelpful, yet this is clearly not what the writers intended to depict and the context says that a point was being make to show that the enemy is really powerful – you back up your point with reasoning, saying that this is consistently used and Celestia consistently fails, indicating that Celestia really is weak and unhelpful; but this is not infallible, because 'correlation does not equal causation', along with the context disproving your statement.

I agree with you, but I want to make this point for clarity.

This is fiction. We're talking about the quality of storytelling technique. If Celestia was a real being, one could argue that the simple fact that she's been running a country for one thousand years, for a series of reasons, is enough to say that she knows what she's doing.

In fiction, ponies just never rebelled against her supposed incompetence because it isn't a story the writer isn't interested in telling.

So, asking for coherence in the form of positive examples is understandable.

2 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

They should stop consistently using Celestia as an easy target that hardly put on a fight, as this can give that impression.

I actually think that they can do this. Known to everyone as the Worf Effect, it IS an effective and simple way to show that her opponent is powerful and should be taken seriously. The problem is that Celestia, to me, lacks a legitimate opposite example. I know Worf. I know that normal people would get their ass handed to then with Klingon martial honors if they messed with him. I understand there is an intention, but I don't feel that kind of presence or power from Celestia, either in the form a raw magical power (like Twilight or Starlight Glimmer) or in the form of her political power over Equestria. If Star Trek said that Worf is actually a coward (and not in the 'bravery is dealing with your fear' sense) it would look odd. But there is nothing keeping an episode from saying that Celestia doesn't actually have any decision power over Equestria or that she couldn't keep a fight even against a normal pony.

And this is glaring, because the other princesses, in particular Cadance and Twilight, can hold her own in a fight. I feel like if there was a sparring match between the princesses, Celestia could be liable to end as a bloody splatter on the wall.

It boils down to me not being able to identify any signs that Celestia is important to Equestria. I wouldn't even need her to be a badass warrior, but considering that she's been leading Equestria for 1000 years, I'd need to see that she's really good at it. Because there was no point in making her like that without a reason for it. (We'll certainly talk more about that as season 8 progresses...) Now, obviously, the cartoon has no obligation to fix this, but at the same time, it becomes an issue every time she's on the screen because they COULD fix it and ARE investing time into her.

2 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Simply because she is a side character, which means that no matter what we are not going to get a major focus on Celestia in every single episode she appears in.

Not a problem for Luna or Cadance, who, like Celestia, are side characters. Hell, Discord. The CMC.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Actually, the writers have openly indicated that Celestia is a powerful being, but it appears that you all dismiss as inadequate, ignore, or leave out those god-like signs; you are giving the negative facts but disregarding the positive, which results in or is a symptom of hyper-criticism. 

I don't care about what they say. I care about what episodes say.

We'll talk about disregarding the positive soon.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 1: Celestia controls the sun, and she can control the moon if need be; therefore, she is like the god Apollo (god of the sun)-this alone should be satisfactory.

You can't compare Celestia to Apollo. The idea of an Olympian deity has a lot of baggage associated with it that isn't associated with Celestia. Apollo comes from a much more realistic world than that of Celestia, that is a lot more moored in the real world. At least when compared to the one Celestia lives. Just because MLP has callbacks to Greek mythology, they're not equivalent.

And you neglected to mention that brain-dead episodes like S5 finale make the sun and Celestia completely optional.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 2: she rules Equestria, and has held this position for more than 1,000 years (as indicated by Luna's imprisonment). The writers didn't have to make an episode to prove her political power (season 7 episode 10), but since they did, this adds emphasis on my point. 

In that episode they reduced ruling a nation to meetings that Luna managed to deal with despite not having whatever talents Celestia has, taking photos with children, making announcements and, literally, being generally nice. In no point did the episode call Luna in her lack of knowledge about how to run the government or ability to make decisions that could influence the lives of countless. The worst that happens because Luna messes up is that a group of children can't go to their excursion. And then the episode shifts it's tone, and suddenly, Celestia's inability to do the obvious is going to bring doom upon Starlight Glimmer because of the damage to her psyche.

It comes to the point that Celestia needs Luna to save her from her incompetence, right after she has the balls to claim that she knows how to deal with Nightmare Moon.

Yeah, right... 

It's because of stupid shit like this that people have a problem with Celestia.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 3: Celestia does not have a special and unique ability (aside from raising the sun) such as Luna's ability to go into dreams, but this doesn't mean she doesn't have one and never will. Absence of a concept does not impose its contrary meaning as true. 

She doesn't, until she does. She's not a real person, she's a cartoon character and her story is dependent on her story being told.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 4: she was taught by Starswirl – that means she could be a terrible student and learned absolutely nothing, learned a fair amount but doesn't exercise it in public, or she is holding back and refuses to resort to her destructive capabilities – it could mean various other things, but I don't see anyone in the comments even mentioning the potentials or considering this fact. 

It means nothing until the cartoon says what it means.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 5: You get my point. Don't just bluntly ignore the facts. To demand even more evidence from Celestia that she is even better than this is like expecting Rainbow Dash to be more than just a Wonderbolt (see season 6 episode 7 and observe the moral of the story). 

You can have your opinions and I'll have mine. If it's fine to you, it's fine. But it's not to me. Standards... Also, the cartoon shows Rainbow BEING a Wonderbolt, but never shows Celestia being 'The Mare'.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

This is why I theorize that Celestia is a god-like being, but she is only hiding her power because if it was to be fully used, then Equestria would not be able to cope with it and thus explode into oblivion-and when she loses to evil villains, it is because she is allowing a lesser evil to threaten Equestria rather than use her greater evil and her god-mode that will instantly eliminate Equestria from existence (Daybreaker) to stop them (just a theory)You can boringly go on and say how horrible she is, but I'm sticking to my over-exaggerated and ultra-over-the-top theory. 

Write a fanfiction about that, I'd read it, but it bears no weight on the canon until the cartoon says this is the case. Specially after you telling us that our interpretation is wrong.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Alas, I must trouble you with more lists.

Actually, you're doing exactly what I think a forum is for.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

She used the elements when necessary (Nightmare Moon, Discord).

She used the Elements when she had no other choice. You know what happens when she doesn't have then.

3 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

she brought Twilight and her friends together in order to help Twilight, which resulted in the protection of Equestria from various enemies – without this decision on Celestia's part, the result could have been disastrous for Equestria

No. The episode where Starlight Glimmer travels to the past to prevent the six from uniting didn't even mention Celestia in relation to that. If the whole thing was her intention, she should have protected her plan from interference. It was Rainbow's sonic rainboom that united them, not Celestia.

In the beginning of the series, this makes sense, but after season five, Celestia was just plain lucky and did the obvious.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

She has resolved many political issues each day, indicated by season 7 episode 10.

Luna's part in that episode turned Celestia's job into a joke, as I said earlier. I can't see, not even through the episodes, any reason to think that Celestia has any presence in the way Equestria is run. Is there a reason to think that she's doing any better than, say Mayor Mare would be doing? With 1000 years of experience, that is more than expected.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

.She has competence: no nation can withstand Equestria's defense because of what Celestia has began – she has efficiently established a concrete nation capable of defending itself even without a ruler (see MLP movie)

Wow, this is unfair. You're giving to Celestia the credit of everything Twilight and others have done because she's the boss. And worse: in the end, things work out because the writer says so, and in the stories the writer has chosen to tell, Celestia is never the reason things work out. You're pretty much saying that since the cartoon doesn't have bad endings, Celestia's competence is proven, despite her lacks often being critical to even allowing Twilight a chance at fixing whatever the problem is.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Each and every day she persists in taking on the difficult tasks of a princess once again seen in season 7 episode 10. 

Seriously... Don't talk to me about that episode.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

She has raised up a grat and mighty leader (Twilight) who in return is raising up another great and might leader (Starlight) - this is an amazing chain reaction, as if this continues Equestria will be defended for generations if Celestia departs. 

I swear that if I ever see anyone that uses this argument ever winning a prize, I'm going to personally escort them to their teachers so that they can give them their prizes. Twilight's victories are her own. It's like people think that all you need to do to become anything is getting a teacher. No personal effort required. Particularly when the best the cartoon has done to show Celestia 'teaching' Twilight is her sending her student a bunch of books to read.

Here is another thing. It's funny that the 'main character argument' works to say that the writers don't need to do much with Celestia, but it never explains why is it that the others win. So here it is too: well, of course Twilight manages to defend Equestria. She's the main character.

And then saying that Equestria can defend itself without Celestia just says that she isn't necessary. What is the point of her being a recurrent character then?

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

3.Celestia has presence. Just because she is not seen don't mean she is not there. Like I said previously, she works behind the scenes. We don't see her working, but we see the results of her work. What more can you ask for?  

I already answered to that. There is nothing that says that Celestia is doing anything particularly good while ruling Equestria, or something that shows her presence.

And I can still ask to actually see her doing that. I've seen Luna doing hers.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

I know, you want her to be in the spotlight, but she isn't a spotlight character. 

People need to stop saying this. The writer can give the spotlight to whatever character they want. 'Spotlight character' isn't a thing. This is just an excuse people use when they want others to stop saying that whatever they like isn't perfect. Everything can be improved and I never saw people complaining when Luna isn't a 'spotlight character' when she got to protect dreams on the screen and Cadance started kicking ass, casting spells and being useful. Neither of them is Twilight.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

Just look at the time and effort made to make her sister some pancakes regardless of whether or not she actually eats them – if it isn't hard to make pancakes, then it is hard to repeatedly do so every day when they go to waste because of rejection.

This isn't the problem and it's pretty obvious by now.

4 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

If you look hard enough, you will see that Celestia doesn't need to be in the spotlight to be a great character.

No, she doesn't. The problem isn't the spotlight. The problem is lack of design. Celestia is an important character that is central to the universe of the cartoon, or at least, a huge part of it, but she's seldom taken into account when dealing with that.

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21 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

No. The episode where Starlight Glimmer travels to the past to prevent the six from uniting didn't even mention Celestia in relation to that. If the whole thing was her intention, she should have protected her plan from interference. It was Rainbow's sonic rainboom that united them, not Celestia.

In the beginning of the series, this makes sense, but after season five, Celestia was just plain lucky and did the obvious.

But what if the plan was formed between Twilight's entrance exam and first episode? I mean it is hard for Celestia to make a plan for Twilight before even knowing Twilight. Well ok she one time only was shown that she had prophetic dreams.

I honestly don't think there was a plan though but I think Celestial advice did try to suggest that Celestia was aware of the other five in her flashback.
 

Quote

Princess Celestia: [voiceover] I knew there was a special group of fillies in Ponyville, but I kept inventing all kinds of reasons why I shouldn't send you.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

I know Worf. I know that normal people would get their ass handed to then with Klingon martial honors if they messed with him

It still did get out of hand, hence why Worf Effect is the trope namer. And the show knew it, Worf's actor even had a demand when he moved to be in Deep Space Nine for his character to not to be treated as a tool to build up threat.  
 

 

6 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

You see her do something epic every day – raise the sun – your average pony couldn't do that. 

Actually not true. Unicorns did do it before the time of Celestia. Celestia is old but is not as old as world itself and sun was raised before her, she just happens to have talent for it. 

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2 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

But what if the plan was formed between Twilight's entrance exam and first episode? I mean it is hard for Celestia to make a plan for Twilight before even knowing Twilight. Well ok she one time only was shown that she had prophetic dreams.

I honestly don't think there was a plan though but I think Celestial advice did try to suggest that Celestia was aware of the other five in her flashback.

This is what I mean saying that Celestia was just lucky and did the obvious. This whole thing has at least nine moving parts and only two of them can be attributed to Celestia.

-Twilight going to Ponyville

-The Apples ending up in Ponyville.

Twilight's test, Rarity, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash ending up in Ponyville, Applejack returning to Ponyville and the sonic rainboom happening in the right place and time was completely out of her control.

So, I really don't subscribe to this 'plan' theory after the whole thing fell apart with the S05 finale. Before it, I felt like it would only make sense if Celestia had puled strings to get them to meet in one place. And now, without it being Celestia's plan, it's just a huge contrivance. It would've been better if the Mane Six happened to get the elements for being in the right place, rather than being the right ponies that happened to be in the right place.

In my eyes, the cartoon managed to take something that was delivered in a silver platter to be explored and turned it into a huge impossibility.

Finally, I appreciate the idea that Celestia let the thing with Twilight get to her nerves because dealing with Twilight was a very personal subject to her. But I'm still missing her relationship with Twilight before. And even then, Celestia just had no other way to deal with the situation, because it just presented to her, despite her actions. There was, literally, no other way she could've dealt with the whole thing, since she had no control over any other part of the whole thing.

3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

It still did get out of hand, hence why Worf Effect is the trope namer. And the show knew it, Worf's actor even had a demand when he moved to be in Deep Space Nine for his character to not to be treated as a tool to build up threat.  

It did. I think that the only reason it didn't bother me as much in TNG was that even being used this way, Worf still had an aura of strength about him. Probably because there weren't other klingons aboard the Enterprise, kicking his enemies' butts. I guess that as bad as 'worfing' is, TNG did it right. I think TNG had better, more 'threatening' threats than MLP (obviously). And Worf always felt to me like a soldier, but never as very powerful, so he was bound to lose sometimes.

Comparing him to Celestia is a bit unfair because of that. He is much more of a character than she is, and lives in a much different world. Eh... I'm digressing.

I didn't know that Michael Dorn didn't like the way Worf was treated though. Is it too much to dream to hear Michael Dorn voicing a gryphon veteran or something?

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3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Actually not true. Unicorns did do it before the time of Celestia. Celestia is old but is not as old as world itself and sun was raised before her, she just happens to have talent for it. 

I'm not going to give any spoilers, but season 8 has something to say about this.

Discussions about her ability to raise the sun and its impact over Equestria should wait.

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@Metemponychosis
 

52 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

This is what I mean saying that Celestia was just lucky and did the obvious. This whole thing has at least nine moving parts and only two of them can be attributed to Celestia.

-Twilight going to Ponyville

-The Apples ending up in Ponyville.

Twilight's test, Rarity, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash ending up in Ponyville, Applejack returning to Ponyville and the sonic rainboom happening in the right place and time was completely out of her control.

Well I think we can attribute testing to Celestia too. I mean it is her own personal school and she has been searching for personal students for some reason. Sunset was one of the ponies she found and also had knowledge of Elements of Harmony. That's a big coincidence for me.

We don't know anything at all about how Dash, Fluttershy or Pinkie came to Ponyville. We don't know if it was accident or Celestia. Rarity is from Ponyville and AJ would seem to return regardless if there was Rainboom or not. Sonic Rainboom is the only definitive thing that is outside of Celestia's control  but it is also the catalyst and I don't see why a theoretical plan couldn't have been started because of it. You can't have plan out of thin air, you need something to plan with, in this case 6 ponies that just happened to form a connection. Also think you missed a part in the theoretical plan, the mane six just happened to be in charge of things that Twilight had to inspect and couldn't avoid. Amazing coincidence. 

Though there probably wasn't plan because when Celestia talks about sending Twilight to Ponyvile it doesn't sound to me like she was sending her to find Elements of Harmony and was just for Twilight's own good. At least that is the impression I got from Celestial Advice. Also there is no reason to suspect that Celestia would know that there had to be six ponies per element. Celestia and Luna always used them alone. Maybe she expected Twilight to do it alone too but I doubt it. I still am confused about Nightmare Moon return prophecy and what Celestia planned to do about it. Or if she knew but then who wrote the prophecy?  So many questions. Personally I suspect Destiny is the mastermind.  
:twitwitch:
 

1 hour ago, Metemponychosis said:

Comparing him to Celestia is a bit unfair because of that. He is much more of a character than she is, and lives in a much different world. Eh... I'm digressing.

I didn't know that Michael Dorn didn't like the way Worf was treated though. Is it too much to dream to hear Michael Dorn voicing a gryphon veteran or something?

Eyup, it is unfair comparison for the reasons you listed. Worf is a very interesting character and I sure enjoyed him a lot. I am actually rewatching Deep Space Nine now.

And well that is just something I read on tvtropes about Worf Effect in Star Trek itself. And yes Michael Dorn must be  assimilated by the herd! Or is it flock for griffins? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

I'm not going to give any spoilers, but season 8 has something to say about this.

Discussions about her ability to raise the sun and its impact over Equestria should wait.

Well now, seems we are gonna have some fun in the future. 

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3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Well I think we can attribute testing to Celestia too. I mean it is her own personal school and she has been searching for personal students for some reason. Sunset was one of the ponies she found and also had knowledge of Elements of Harmony. That's a big coincidence for me.

Saying that Twilight's test was out of Celestia's control, I mean that Twilight could've been born anywhere and Celestia would've never heard of her. Bad choice of words on my part. It would've been better to call it 'Twilight's awakening' or something like that. Though it's possible that Celestia thought of Sunset, considering EQG canon for the sake of the conversation, as a candidate. Sunset found out about the Elements too soon and had selfish motivations, if I remember a certain comic correctly.

But was Celestia searching for personal students for some reason? I honestly can't remember if it's said anywhere that she was. Twilight actually presented herself to Celestia in a coincidence. Though it makes sense that Celestia was looking for 'bearers' for the Element of Magic and she certainly knew that Nightmare Moon was coming back sooner or later. And unicorns with potential would be talented magicians and would be drawn into her school.

Yeah, in the end, Twilight would be sent to Celestia's school. Pretty clever, by itself.

Well, this is mostly from season one and I'm not surprised I like it then. It just makes me resent that Celestia didn't pull the strings to get the others in one place. The five just happen to be in that particular place for Twilight to be united with them. Thus...

3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

We don't know anything at all about how Dash, Fluttershy or Pinkie came to Ponyville. We don't know if it was accident or Celestia. Rarity is from Ponyville and AJ would seem to return regardless if there was Rainboom or not. Sonic Rainboom is the only definitive thing that is outside of Celestia's control  but it is also the catalyst and I don't see why a theoretical plan couldn't have been started because of it. You can't have plan out of thin air, you need something to plan with, in this case 6 ponies that just happened to form a connection. Also think you missed a part in the theoretical plan, the mane six just happened to be in charge of things that Twilight had to inspect and couldn't avoid. Amazing coincidence. 

Yes, we don't know. But I think you're wrong. Celestia doesn't get to decide where Rarity would be born and in this case, she couldn't have known that Applejack would be born to the Apples, IF they were the only ones that could've carried the Elements of Generosity and Honesty (talking about destiny later). And I remember Applejack saying that she returned because of the rainboom, but I can see what you mean. Also, for that to be a plan, she would need to know that these ponies are important, for specific reasons and would need to know that they would be born to their families. It would be a huge net of things she'd have to know just to ensure that the right ponies would be in the right place, centuries ago (her first move, sending Apples to the place Ponyville would be founded). And The Cutie Re-Mark shoots down this idea. Also, if this was the case (that Celestia knew these ponies would be there), there would be no need for the school, because she'd know where Twilight would be born.

... Maybe Celestia had some kind of genomics program where she'd make strategic marriages between ponies in an attempt to distil the traces of each Element in a lineage of ponies, culminating in six heroes of pure blood and access to the most powerful magic in existence. The Equestrian Lebensborn.  She did point the Apples to the right place. Suddenly, Blueblood, Fancypants, Applejack's rich relatives, Cadance and Flurry Heart make a lot of sense. :awesomecheer:

But this is more digressing. The problem to me is this huge coincidence. If it was a coincidence, there is nothing else she could've done and all her merit lies in simply identifying the situation, and not in preparing for things to happen. Therefore, destiny. I could like that, an idea that there is something, kind of like the Force, that seeks some sort of balance and dishes out destinies and talents, so that ponies are born in the right place and in the right time, in an emergence of something greater (Season eight has something to say about this too). The problem is that if the narrative doesn't spell this out, this is that necessary contrivance to make a story happen. in the end we're in a situation where we say that a cartoon with stuff like Starlight Glimmer's psychotic behavior in one episode and the subtlety of an intelligent force in the background making ponies with the right talent at the right time. It's a cartoon for children, not rocket science. If there is something, it should be obvious.

3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Though there probably wasn't plan because when Celestia talks about sending Twilight to Ponyvile it doesn't sound to me like she was sending her to find Elements of Harmony and was just for Twilight's own good. At least that is the impression I got from Celestial Advice. Also there is no reason to suspect that Celestia would know that there had to be six ponies per element. Celestia and Luna always used them alone. Maybe she expected Twilight to do it alone too but I doubt it. I still am confused about Nightmare Moon return prophecy and what Celestia planned to do about it. Or if she knew but then who wrote the prophecy?  So many questions. Personally I suspect Destiny is the mastermind.  

Celestia was definitively worried about Twilight becoming too isolated, rather than sending her to meet with the other bearers, if Celestial Advice is any indication. The problem is that the pilot episode kinda indicates that Celestia sent Twilight knowing that she'd meet the others and that they'd bring Luna back, because there is no other way to explain the pilot. Because if Twilight found about Nightmare Moon and her return in a book, I can be sure that Celestia knew of the same. Heck, she could've been the one to write the prophecy, which didn't even need to be a prophecy, but pure understanding of how these things work.

I'm just amazed at how powerful, or resourceful Luna is, that the most powerful magic in Equestria can't contain her indefinitely. Or maybe it's not about her, but rather destiny. Or even some other force, like the stars that help her escape. Again, if there is something to it, it should be obvious.

Actually, going back to Celestia's motivations, here is Celestia's quote from the transcript...

Quote

Princess Celestia: I told you that you needed to make some friends, nothing more. I saw the signs of Nightmare Moon's return and I knew it was you who had the magic inside to defeat her, but you could not unleash it until you let true friendship into your heart. Now if only another will as well.

I guess the problem is bad retconning, trying to input an emotion that would be out of place with Celestia's prior motivation in the beginning. Also, Celestia acts differently from she should it Celestia Advice is right...

Quote
Princess Celestia: Why so glum, my faithful student? Are you not happy that your quest is complete and you can return to your studies in Canterlot?
Twilight Sparkle: That's just it. Just when I learned how wonderful it is to have friends, I have to leave them.
Princess Celestia: Spike, take a note, please. I, Princess Celestia, hereby decree that the unicorn Twilight Sparkle shall take on a new mission for Equestria. She must continue to study the magic of friendship. She must report to me her findings from her new home in Ponyville.

This is completely different from the Celestia in Celestial Advice. Well, of course, in Celestia Advice, we're seeing the personal side of Celestia struggling with sending Twilight away, rather than her public face in the pilot. But it just makes her look stupid and lost, because there was no other thing she could've done in that situation. Especially if only the other Mane Six could've carried the Elements. It seems Lauren Faust had a clearer picture of what Celestia is. Not saying that it was better, but clearer. Because without Celestial Advice, this makes Celestia look like the proverbial chessmaster, moving her pieces around and checkmating the opponent before it even has a chance to see what is going on. Brutally efficient. No wonder people called her a goddess way back.

I haven't really thought about it, but I think that the same could be said about Return of Harmony.

And then suddenly Celestia has no clue how to defend her capital because Chrysalis outmaneuvered her and was inside her circle, disguised right under her nose. And then AGAIN in To Where and Back Again. And then she has no clue how to deal with Tirek, despite having defeated him previously, while she had much more raw power to fight him while he was weak this time. And in the movie a damn airship just waltz in right to Canterlot like it owns the place. And I don't even want to talk about how the hell things happened in The Cutie Re-Mark. Though I'd be particularly interested in knowing how that timeline with the Flim-Flam brothers came to be... I guess she forgot to smile the right way in a group photo for a conservationist organization.

4 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Well now, seems we are gonna have some fun in the future. 

You can expect a wall or two of text.

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3 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

The problem to me is this huge coincidence. If it was a coincidence, there is nothing else she could've done and all her merit lies in simply identifying the situation, and not in preparing for things to happen. Therefore, destiny. I could like that, an idea that there is something, kind of like the Force, that seeks some sort of balance and dishes out destinies and talents, so that ponies are born in the right place and in the right time, in an emergence of something greater (Season eight has something to say about this too). The problem is that if the narrative doesn't spell this out, this is that necessary contrivance to make a story happen. in the end we're in a situation where we say that a cartoon with stuff like Starlight Glimmer's psychotic behavior in one episode and the subtlety of an intelligent force in the background making ponies with the right talent at the right time. It's a cartoon for children, not rocket science. If there is something, it should be obvious.

Actually existence of destiny was revealed in the first few minutes of the show by telling us that prophecy exists. You can't have prophecies without preordained events, so you must have destiny. It is a magical fairy-tale land. 

I still don't see what is so bad though with Celestia discovering Twilight's potential thanks to the school she set up and then either examining the Rainboom event and discovering the other five or simply just observing her own population and noticing five special ponies and their talents. There is no shame in identifying situation and then planing accordingly. There really is no need for over complicating things by assuming that Celestia centuries ago deliberately planed lineages of six ponies and plotted every single thing that led to the first episode, I mean that's just silly. 

Also thanks for reminding me of what Celestia said in the first episode, she definitely did seem to know that Twilight was the key to save Luna. You know, now she reminds me of Dumbledor who knew Harry's destiny but cared too much about his happiness which blinded him and he tried to postpone it even though he knew it was inevitable. It was dumb and he knew it but did it anyway.  

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@8492nd Celestia is an interesting character in my opinion 

but not every character is going to resonate with everybody

some people like celestia that's fine

some people don't that's fine as well

but theres no need to raise a fuss

I think everybody should be able to disagree without a riot being raised about it.

because honestly theres no need to raise a fuss just because someone disagrees with you.

open a discussion with them and listen to what they have to say on the matter without jumping to conclusions and taking it out of context

with that said I think I've said enough on this issue

Infinite out *drops mic*

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Actually existence of destiny was revealed in the first few minutes of the show by telling us that prophecy exists. You can't have prophecies without preordained events, so you must have destiny. It is a magical fairy-tale land. 

Quote

Twilight Sparkle: Mare, mare... aha! The Mare in the Moon, myth from olden pony times. A powerful pony who wanted to rule Equestria, defeated by the Elements of Harmony and imprisoned in the moon. Legend has it that on the longest day of the thousandth year, the stars will aid in her escape, and she will bring about nighttime eternal! [gasp] Spike! Do you know what this means?

That's a prophecy, alright. The idea of destiny, in this case, doesn't sit right with me, because of the notion of self-fulfilling prophecies. I'd need the cartoon to tell me that it was destiny that united the other five in Ponyville, and not a coincidence that some schmuck messing with time travel can ruin. That is really all i can say about it though.

3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

I still don't see what is so bad though with Celestia discovering Twilight's potential thanks to the school she set up and then either examining the Rainboom event and discovering the other five or simply just observing her own population and noticing five special ponies and their talents. There is no shame in identifying situation and then planing accordingly. There really is no need for over complicating things by assuming that Celestia centuries ago deliberately planed lineages of six ponies and plotted every single thing that led to the first episode, I mean that's just silly. 

To me, the problem is that there wasn't any other thing she could've done, if all things just aligned regardless of her actions or lack thereof.

I'm not complicating things. I was trying to see a way the whole thing could've worked out (and making a joke too). I don't really believe that. What I do believe is that the cartoon didn't give much about that. Good for the fellow fanfic writers...

3 hours ago, Cinder Vel said:

Also thanks for reminding me of what Celestia said in the first episode, she definitely did seem to know that Twilight was the key to save Luna. You know, now she reminds me of Dumbledor who knew Harry's destiny but cared too much about his happiness which blinded him and he tried to postpone it even though he knew it was inevitable. It was dumb and he knew it but did it anyway.  

Sounds right to me.

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My Comment

I believe I have...overreacted to everyone's comments, labeling them as hyper-criticism – so I apologize. Even though I saw the legitimacy of a negative opinion on Celestia, I jumped to conclusions and labeled all those opinions as hyper-critical and therefore unreasonable. Furthermore, I should make a better statement. While you have negative opinions and reasons on Celestia which is simply criticism and not as extreme as hyper-criticism, I ask that you at least consider Celestia's positive side which I presented, as it does have reasonable aspects to it. In the end though, I think no one can be entirely dogmatic on Celestia being a good character or bad character, though I do see that from the show's unintentional standpoint it is lenient towards a negative view. 

Reply to @Metemponychosis

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

Assume that I agree with anything I don't mention. At least for now.

I will say the same of this comment. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

what would you tell me if I said that your claim of my 'hyper-criticism' stems from your own lack of criticism?

I don't see my lack of criticism, but as indicated from my initial paragraph I do see how overreactive I have been as I not only promoted my interpretations, but demoted and denied everyone else's as purely illogical fallacies and hyper-critical conclusions. It's not really a lack problem, but an ignorance problem – and I apologize once more for that. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

You can't compare Celestia to Apollo. The idea of an Olympian deity has a lot of baggage associated with it that isn't associated with Celestia. Apollo comes from a much more realistic world than that of Celestia, that is a lot more moored in the real world. At least when compared to the one Celestia lives. Just because MLP has callbacks to Greek mythology, they're not equivalent.

I should have stuck with my original analogy, as this one I made lead to a misunderstanding of my point. Celestia is like a goddess, which is to emphasis my point that she has great power indicated by her raising the sun.

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

In that episode they reduced ruling a nation to meetings that Luna managed to deal with despite not having whatever talents Celestia has, taking photos with children, making announcements and, literally, being generally nice. In no point did the episode call Luna in her lack of knowledge about how to run the government or ability to make decisions that could influence the lives of countless. The worst that happens because Luna messes up is that a group of children can't go to their excursion.

Actually, this does not prove anything. This could have been an easy day according to Celestia's standards, and in reality she does much harder tasks. Furthermore, the episode didn't even show the full day and tasks, especially when Luna went to a council, the doors closed, and then opened up in a seeming later time of the day with Luna looking like she ran a verbal marathon. I am saying that Celestia has really strong facial muscles that can compete with Bulk Biceps Celestia's daily routine is still unknown and it could be random for all we know – unless you can me a stable quote from Celestia herself or some other pony that doesn't tip-toe around the issue like that of the first alicorn birth Equestria has ever seen; or any other concrete evidence indicating such.

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

The worst that happens because Luna messes up is that a group of children can't go to their excursion. And then the episode shifts it's tone, and suddenly, Celestia's inability to do the obvious is going to bring doom upon Starlight Glimmer because of the damage to her psyche.

I noticed that you assumed what should have been 'obvious' to Celestia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you said 'obvious' I am thinking of simply ending the nightmare like Luna can do. Assuming I'm correct, then this isn't that obvious, and especially not to Celestia. I thought it was obvious because I saw it before in previous episodes and I know what Luna does in the dream realm; on the contrary, Celestia has absolutely no clue as to what Luna does as far as what is canon.  

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

It comes to the point that Celestia needs Luna to save her from her incompetence, right after she has the balls to claim that she knows how to deal with Nightmare Moon.

When Celestia said she knew how to deal with Nightmare Moon, she is thinking in terms of reality – she is getting too caught up in the heat of the event in the dream. She needed Luna, who has many years of experience, to deal with this dream – and even Luna said that she never saw something like this, so don't blame Celestia for getting caught up in the heat of the moment. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

Write a fanfiction about that, I'd read it, but it bears no weight on the canon until the cartoon says this is the case. Specially after you telling us that our interpretation is wrong.

I saw how hypocritical this could be if I was making that point, but I'm not. I did not claim it had anything to prove my points canonically. It is just an idea or theory that I had, and nothing more. I put that theory in my comment to point out that there can be more to Celestia than what the show indicates, and also to point out that just because the writers seem to have no interest in her doesn't mean she is a TLC - Totally Lost Cause. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

Wow, this is unfair. You're giving to Celestia the credit of everything Twilight and others have done because she's the boss. And worse: in the end, things work out because the writer says so, and in the stories the writer has chosen to tell, Celestia is never the reason things work out. You're pretty much saying that since the cartoon doesn't have bad endings, Celestia's competence is proven, despite her lacks often being critical to even allowing Twilight a chance at fixing whatever the problem is.

This does seem unfair, and I am giving Celestia more credit than what is due. But let's consider this for a moment. I know this is real-life and Celestia isn't, but some of the same concepts still apply – such as the existence of gravity, the presence of evil, a recognized need for politics and government; and while these mentioned have different attributes than in our world the general concept in itself applies (not saying every concept does though). We give credit to President Abraham Lincoln for the general events that happens to America when he was the leader, and everything fell on him (such as the Civil War and slavery). Same with Equestrians and Celestia. I admit I overdid it though, because Celestia herself did not carry out the actions, come up with the plans, and defeat the enemy or problem but others do, such as the mane six in season 2 episode 1 and 2 – they saved Equestria. However, Celestia would be held responsible if Equestria falls or succeeds, but only as leader. I was wrong in giving Celestia more credit than she deserved though. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

I swear that if I ever see anyone that uses this argument ever winning a prize, I'm going to personally escort them to their teachers so that they can give them their prizes. Twilight's victories are her own. It's like people think that all you need to do to become anything is getting a teacher. No personal effort required. Particularly when the best the cartoon has done to show Celestia 'teaching' Twilight is her sending her student a bunch of books to read.

I need to expound on my argument. This goes along with my other statement about some real-life concepts applying to Equestrian. We give George Washington credit for many things like being the first president, we give Thomas Edison credit for inventing the light bulb, we give Supreme Leader Snoke credit for establishing the First Order, we should be consistent and give credit to Celestia for successfully establishing a thus-far flawless chain reaction of teacher/student relations that if extrapolated will produce a line of artificial alicorn princesses unless a new variable or new information is presented. True, Twilight's victories are her own, but that isn't the point – if I gave Celestia credit for Twilight's victories, then I was wrong. 

Changing topics slightly, I disagree with you saying that all Celestia did according to canon is send Twilight books. First, Celestia willingly sent Twilight away – to ensure that she makes friends and not become like antagonist Snowfall Frost in terms of character, or antagonist Tempest Shadow in terms of philosophy on friendship, or antagonist Starlight Glimmer in terms of philosophy on cutie marks. Second, Celestia always helped Twilight when she asked for it – she couldn't help her all the time though because Celestia and Twilight were normally separated. Third, Celestia is kind and forgiving to Twilight when Twilight screws up, as seen in season 2 episode 3 and S3 Ep. 1 and 2. Fourth, Celestia monitored Twilight as a student, making sure that she grew in friendship and ultimately toward the goal of Twilight's 'graduation'. I must admit though, the cartoon could have done more with Celestia as teacher. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

And then saying that Equestria can defend itself without Celestia just says that she isn't necessary.

That isn't the point of my statement – it is that Celestia should be credited for governing and maintaining a successful nation, like how (again pointing to my statement about real-life concepts) we credit Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, and the other presidents.  

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

There is nothing that says that Celestia is doing anything particularly good while ruling Equestria, or something that shows her presence.

And I can still ask to actually see her doing that. I've seen Luna doing hers.

Well, I was hoping I never would need to give an answer, but it seems I need to. It doesn't help that the writers don't really give us much, but I can extract a few details proving my point. 

1.Celestia did what was necessary even if it meant losing her sister – she banished Nightmare Moon to the moon. 

2.She stood up to Discord and saved the Equestrians from his chaotic tyranny.  

3.As soon as evil was revealed, Celestia was willing to defend her subjects and sacrifice herself if need be when Chrysalis revealed her true form – and Celestia was also the first victim as soon as evil was revealed. 

4.Celestia willingly defended the Crystal Empire from the frozen north for as long as she could. 

5. Celestia gave up her magic to one who would not use it for evil reasons instead of one who would use it to dominate all the ponies (Lord Tirek). 

6.Celestia doesn't tax as far as we know of, but I don't know where the castle came from either... – maybe it's like Twilight's, magically appearing out of a seed without any down payment, additional fees, or any initial cost whatsoever! I don't recall any taxing being mentioned at all in Equestria now that I think of it. 

7.Celestia isn't a dictator. That fact that Luna reigns with Celestia and there are other princesses and leaders ruling different districts of Equestrian proves this. 

The point is, there are many things that show that Celestia is doing good, and that she could do worse things but doesn't. 

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:14 AM, Metemponychosis said:

The writer can give the spotlight to whatever character they want. 'Spotlight character' isn't a thing. This is just an excuse people use when they want others to stop saying that whatever they like isn't perfect.

I'm just making a point that Celestia does things that are not openly seen throughout the TV show, but I do see now that 'spotlight characters' is an illogical argument. I gave the example of pancakes to prove my point that Celestia has been doing something nice for her sister behind the scenes for who knows how long, and this proves that Celestia is actually working behind the scenes. I'm not saying Celestia is perfect, but I am saying that no one is using the hidden key facts that disprove the 'fact' that Celestia is a terrible and totally lost character – in other words, she has both pros and cons with pros being the hidden feature.

Something I wanted to Add about Season 7 Episode 10 

Luna had a rough time in that episode handling Celestia's list, indicating how hard it is to be Celestia. Even if Luna did handle some or all the tasks easily, that doesn't disprove anything, since Luna is on Celestia's level as princess of Equestria and as her sister, and they both also have many years of experience. 

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On 3/11/2018 at 11:19 PM, Thrond said:

Do you just mean villain encounters? More often than not, I feel like Twilight basically stumbles through those, at best figuring out some plan last minute (“A Canterlot Wedding”) and at worst only succeeding because some magic artifact happened to fall into her hands (“Twilight’s Kingdom”). The exceptions are almost always the ones where Celestia outright wasn’t present (“The Cutie Map”).

My point was that Celestia gets knocked down to highlight the gravity of the situation, and that's the only purpose she ever serves. Even though Twilight stumbles at points, she gets to contribute more toward the solution than Celestia.

In "A Canterlot Wedding", Twilight was the only one who was suspicious. Whatever Celestia was doing is a complete mystery, and the only notable thing she did was fall to Chrysalis. Yeah, Chrysalis sort of struggled in the beam fight (which itself was so weak and flimsy) and made a remark, but that whole thing was so half-hearted that if you removed it, the episode would lose nothing.

In "Twilight's Kingdom", Twilight initially wanted to confront Tirek while the others backed down. Tirek could absorb magic, but that again felt like an excuse to exclude the other alicorns. By the way, why didn't he immediately absorb Twilight when the two fought? And what else did the other alicorns do? Nothing. Celestia had ideas, but they failed miserably, so she ultimately contributed nothing. There was also a scene early in the episode where Twilight felt dejected about her role as princess not amounting to anything while the others get to be supposedly useful, but that scene felt empty because the other alicorns never did anything whether considering the episode or the rest of the show.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

It is non-legitimate because the writers are not attempting to show Celestia as weak and unhelpful, and to say differently is to impose a different and false meaning on the scenario even though you got a different impression-which you didn't by the way, as I see in the comments.  

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

With the impression you got that Celestia is weak and unhelpful, you can lecture the writers. Even though they clearly did not mean to give this impression, it was given anyways, which means that they should consider changing a few things.

It was not their intention to make Celestia look weak, but as you said, that's what happened. Ideas and intentions are separate from their execution. And since the execution seems so different from what was initially intended, how much does the intention really matter? If we were just to judge the story's intentions, then there'd be no reason to judge fiction since no one purposefully tries to tell a bad story.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

They don't have to make her do something godly though, like slay 500,000 legions of orcs with just her bare hoofs-they don't have to make her Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. Why, you may ask? Simply because she is a side character, which means that no matter what we are not going to get a major focus on Celestia in every single episode she appears in. Furthermore, not making her like Zeus wouldn't harm her character in any way (nor would it help, but this isn't your TV show, so let them do what they want with it).

I never needed her to be a god. The problem is that she's useless because she doesn't do anything outside of (directly or indirectly) giving other characters some task. If she was never going to do anything outside of that, why bring her into the show at all?

I just wanted to see what kind of a person she was and what she could do, but that has hardly happened, or at least it has not happened the way the writers intended.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Celestia is a side character, she will rarely be in the spotlight; and when she is, it doesn't last too long.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

The show is interested in the mane six, Starlight and her friends, etc. - it does not center around Celestia. "Friendship is Magic" not "Celestia is Magic".

Being a side character is no excuse for being treated like crap.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Actually, the writers have openly indicated that Celestia is a powerful being, but it appears that you all dismiss as inadequate, ignore, or leave out those god-like signs; you are giving the negative facts but disregarding the positive, which results in or is a symptom of hyper-criticism. 

They say it, but they don't show it. At least not in a positive manner. A powerful character keeps getting knocked down by a villain directly or indirectly. Why is this powerful characters so ineffective?

Here's a quote I made from another thread.

On 7/26/2017 at 1:56 PM, Number95 said:

See, that's the problem. Princess Celestia has kept Equestria together for 1000 years on her own, but she's suddenly helpless in the modern day because plot says so. Thus, any "big" story with some major villain won't have any credibility nowadays.

If Celestia is pushed aside to do nothing, that doesn't make sense since she's not supposed to be a coward that does nothing and gets others to take care of her dirty work. She's still a powerful user of magic, and she has used it for combat against Nightmare Moon and Discord. Too bad "Princess Twilight Sparkle" gave a lame flashbacks, but that's beside the point. So it's hard for me to buy that someone like her is continuously useless against the villain because that doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, since she's always been useless, helpless, and incompetent, it also doesn't make sense for her to be able to do anything against a villain. Where did that urge to action come from? Why does she suddenly seem pretty strong? Even she and Luna couldn't do anything about Starlight's cutie mark spell in "A Royal Problem". In that same episode, Celestia tried to claim that she knows how to deal with Nightmare Moon. But the premiere and "The Cutie Re-Mark" are already calling bullshit on that.

 

 

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 1: Celestia controls the sun, and she can control the moon if need be; therefore, she is like the god Apollo (god of the sun)-this alone should be satisfactory. I know the storm king and Twilight did this, but only did it because they had Celestia's magic. I know that the unicorns raised the sun and moon according to the hearth's warming story, but that was pre-equestria. It didn't say that all the unicorns could do it - there could have been a supreme unicorn unspoken of that did such and was unmentioned because the story was passed down from generation to generation and this part was confused and then forgotten. The point is that hyper-criticism is once more being used to prove something that isn't intended, nor is fully evident. 

Does being able to raise the sun on her own really make her like Apollo? You did mention that a team of unicorns were also able to do this, so I must ask: Is their combined power similar to Apollo's? And you even did say that the kind of unicorns that could help raise the sun were "unspoken of" for one reason or another. So for all we know, those unicorns in the past could've been average unicorns.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 2: she rules Equestria, and has held this position for more than 1,000 years (as indicated by Luna's imprisonment). The writers didn't have to make an episode to prove her political power (season 7 episode 10), but since they did, this adds emphasis on my point. 

You may have mentioned "A Royal Problem" as an episode that shows Celestia being effective as Luna couldn't do Celestia's job, but that episode actually doesn't show how Celestia handled her jobs. All that's shown is that Luna is less effective at those jobs, and that isn't the same as saying that Celestia is effective or how she is effective.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 3: Celestia does not have a special and unique ability (aside from raising the sun) such as Luna's ability to go into dreams, but this doesn't mean she doesn't have one and never will. Absence of a concept does not impose its contrary meaning as true. 

I'm actually not that concerned about whether she has a unique ability because she could make up for that with whatever other skills she may have. More on this later.

As for the second part, that's not the same as confirming that she does have a unique ability.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Fact 4: she was taught by Starswirl – that means she could be a terrible student and learned absolutely nothing, learned a fair amount but doesn't exercise it in public, or she is holding back and refuses to resort to her destructive capabilities – it could mean various other things, but I don't see anyone in the comments even mentioning the potentials or considering this fact. 

So? What has Star Swirl taught her? If Celestia's time as a student was important, what was she like then? If how she applies what she has learned is important, how so?

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

She is still capable of kicking that stuff, and it still can happen in the show. Don't make unnecessary conclusions. 

She has in the past against Nightmare Moon and Discord, but that's it. Recently, she has done

 

To borrow from @Metemponychosis, she seems helpless without some kind of assistance from the elements. What kind of ass has she kicked without them? And there's my quote from another thread to consider.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Some things are better left a secret, which adds to the suspense of things. If Celestia never reveals her true powers, then we are left wondering what she really is capable of. Why are you assuming they don't want anything to do with her? For all you know, she could be the ultimate good that conquers all evil at the end of season 9 – anything is possible. 

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

This is what should be going through everyone's head! They didn't reveal it; therefore, so much potential can come and lead to speculation, theories, opinions, and more! 

Answers can still bring up more questions. The problem is that there are too many (bad) questions about Celestia and too few good answers.

Even though I complained about her poor showings, what's important to note is that she's still making some kind of impression through those showings. And like I said, I haven't found much that's genuinely positive.

Speculations and theories are fine, but I need a reason to watch the show because I can just stick to my own imagination and ignore whatever the show throws out. I know the show isn't about Princess Celestia, but I was initially drawn to the show for its more mysterious elements, e.g. magic and alicorns. And that stuff was even hinted back at the first 2 episodes of the show. Again, I haven't been satisfied with what's given.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Chill. The writers have 22 minutes per episode to get a point across, and side characters don't show up for long periods of time anyways. If you hate wasted potential, then MLP shouldn't be the first thing you think of. Three word my friend: 'Supreme Leader Snoke' - the biggest piece of trash that Star Wars ever made. 

As of season 7, the show had 169 episodes, which means it had roughly 3718 minutes to do something with her. And she has nothing to boast about in those 3718 minutes. And if there's only going to be 9 seasons of the show, 2 seasons of (possibly) positive portrayal likely won't make up for 7 seasons of wastefulness.

To compare that amount of time, I'll bring in Star Wars. I don't know how many people including the filmmakers care about the spinoff material, so I won't consider those. The third trilogy is about to be completed, and there's a major side movie in Rogue One. I'll overestimate their running time and say they're 3 hours long, so that's 10 movies going to 1800 minutes. Yeah, storytelling through television and movies are different, but MLP:FIM still had too much time.

I didn't ask for her to do something too amazing, but I can't say they've done anything meaningful in a positive way with her during all that time. I've talked about her season 7 appearances elsewhere

By the way, I haven't seen the newest Star Wars movies, so I don't know what you referred to, and I'm not curious. Even if I happened to agree with you about that "biggest piece of trash", that still wouldn't stop me from saying that this show is made of wasted potential.

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Its purpose it to make the villain look good, and if Celestia doesn't fail at stopping the said villain, then you have Celestia as all that is needed; thus, 'friendship is not magic' but 'Celestia is magic'. If Celestia succeeds, she becomes the main character, the mane six fade into the background for at least one episode and no one else is no longer the center of the episode. What they should do is for at least one episode have a balance of both Celestia and the mane six plus Starlight's team that all play major roles in stopping the villain, not one above the others. Furthermore, Twilight isn't always the main objective of the plot – you are missing the points. 

On 3/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

She is more than just a plot device, she is a mentor, leader, etc. - the show just doesn't reveal much on the matter. Her 'unintentionally negative appearances' are actually intentionally positive that happen to be misinterpreted. 

There's an option to make Celestia a helper, or put her at the front with the other ponies helping her, and you've mentioned that. What the show keeps doing is making her fail and then do nothing afterward, or she just does nothing at all. And then I wonder why she even exists.

And no, Twilight isn't always the main objective of the plots, but what I'm trying to say is that Twilight is always more effective. I can accept that Twilight is better than Celestia in some ways, but I still don't know how Celestia is effective.

I'll quote myself again (with slight edits) but from a different thread. This is after I rambled about Celestia being put on the sidelines yet again at the end of season 7.

On 12/13/2017 at 9:07 PM, Number95 said:

Again, I’m fine with Celestia not knowing everything, but this case still doesn’t help her image because it’s yet another example of her not being able to do something while still not saying she can do. Just to reiterate, she:

  • Can’t defend (and is ultimately inconsequential to Equestria according to “The Cutie Re-Mark”)
  • Can’t beat the villains or even help with the villains’ defeat
  • Doesn’t know anything about the Crystal Empire
  • Doesn’t (seem to) know anything about Star Swirl’s spell from the end of season 3
  • Has poor judgment for trusting the obviously untrustworthy Discord at the end of season 4
  • Doesn’t know why Flurry Heart is an alicorn
  • Can’t fend off a blizzard
  • Can’t do anything about Starlight’s cutie mark spell
  • And now she can’t read an old language

At least a few of those are huge negatives, by the way. So to attempt to alleviate those negatives (good luck with the first point), what does she have to compensate? She did do an impressive spell in “Lesson Zero”, but that’s the only time she did anything impressive. I guess she has been keeping Equestria together for 1000 years, but too bad the show hasn’t shown how she does this. And why does this seemingly amazing ruler become so useless and incompetent when she shows up in a two-part episode? It’s also hard to believe that someone like her has kept Equestria together for that long. Just refer to “Twilight’s Kingdom” and “The Cutie Re-Mark” for good examples of her competence and helpfulness. What else? Uh, um… she can talk… and walk. Basic pony stuff. As in, who the hell knows?

And being able to raise the sun on her own isn't much since, again, a team of unicorns in the past could do the same thing. What exactly does Equestria lose if Celestia is gone? The end of season 5 showed what Equestria lost without the Mane 6 as friends, though it's hardly a surprise.

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On Twitter recently, I expanded on my thoughts regarding Celestia:

My main complaint with Celestia as well as Twilight and even Luna is that they’re restricted by their mentor roles, which the show tends to equate with existing as a distant voice of wisdom. Celestia being shorthand for “power,” as something for villains to overcome, is part of that. 

I’m not opposed to an episode about her showing off, because giving her such focus would force the writers to make her struggle meaningfully. She could actually, like, demonstrate a wide range of relatable human emotions. Imagine that! Luna could use that too, TBH.

I can’t feel Celestia is weak, because the show so often defines her entirely through implying wisdom and power. And that was nice at first but it’s not really enough on its own. 

On 3/15/2018 at 9:47 PM, Number95 said:

In "A Canterlot Wedding", Twilight was the only one who was suspicious. Whatever Celestia was doing is a complete mystery, and the only notable thing she did was fall to Chrysalis. 

I'll grant you that, but I don't recall that episode ever truly disproving the idea that Twilight was just being overprotective, and being correct was just a coincidence. 

Plus, that was like the second time Celestia was bested, so (in my opinion) it still held some weight. 

On 3/15/2018 at 9:47 PM, Number95 said:

In "Twilight's Kingdom", Twilight initially wanted to confront Tirek while the others backed down. Tirek could absorb magic, but that again felt like an excuse to exclude the other alicorns. By the way, why didn't he immediately absorb Twilight when the two fought? And what else did the other alicorns do? Nothing. Celestia had ideas, but they failed miserably, so she ultimately contributed nothing. 

I think the implication was supposed to be that Twilight was able to fend him off for a while because she had the magic of all three alicorns. Plus, confronting Tirek didn't actually amount to much, did it? I can see why Twilight would have accepted Celestia's ideas; even with the power of all four alicorns, Twilight was only able to fight Tirek to a standstill, so hiding might have seemed like the best idea. When Twilight found her solution, it was because asking for Discord to be freed just happened to find the last key to the box - a perfect example of her stumbling into a solution. 

Although you're correct in that Twilight is more active in both episodes, even with as hard as the latter worked to justify Celestia's absence. And don't even ask me to justify the movie. 

On 3/15/2018 at 9:47 PM, Number95 said:

There was also a scene early in the episode where Twilight felt dejected about her role as princess not amounting to anything while the others get to be supposedly useful, but that scene felt empty because the other alicorns never did anything whether considering the episode or the rest of the show.

Well, at least those alicorns are alleged to have some sort of role. Up to that point (and arguably still), Twilight's title meant absolutely nothing. I don't want to get into an argument about Twilight as a princess, because that will derail the thread, but no matter how little you think the other princesses have done, I'm of the opinion that Twilight in season 4 did even less to merit the title. 

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On 3/12/2018 at 11:08 AM, Metemponychosis said:

@8492ndWhat about people having opinions that are different to yours that hurt you so much?

Because I know you will beat every argument that I can think of with your "superior" skills. I already know I'll fail badly when I stated that I'm fine with her with the way she's presented.

 

I've already seen just how super eloquent you are in your previous posts, and I know for fact that I'll never be able to articulate my point clearly to you. Along with the others.

What's the point of me fighting this arguing battle if I know I'm going to lose anyway?

I know you'll see people who don't communicate and justify their thoughts like you do as inferior and stupid, of which I'm one.

Like this

Me: I like Celestia the way she is now.

You: Why?

Me: "I can't explain why I like her. I just do." Or "I'm not going to bother telling you why."

You: Why am I even talking to you? Since you can't and/or won't argue properly, and since your arguing skills are abysmal, you're an inferior and stupid creature.

Like that. You and everyone else who are far more articulate than me @AnalyticalGamer@Number95 , you see me as an inferior being because I can't argue like you do.

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On 3/14/2018 at 7:28 AM, Libra Dohko said:

@8492nd Celestia is an interesting character in my opinion 

but not every character is going to resonate with everybody

some people like celestia that's fine

some people don't that's fine as well

but theres no need to raise a fuss

I think everybody should be able to disagree without a riot being raised about it.

because honestly theres no need to raise a fuss just because someone disagrees with you.

open a discussion with them and listen to what they have to say on the matter without jumping to conclusions and taking it out of context

with that said I think I've said enough on this issue

Libra Dohko out *drops mic*

 

 

Well I know they're going to force an answer out of me if I say why I like her the way she is now.

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On 3/12/2018 at 4:10 AM, RK_Striker_JK_5 said:

How high is your blood pressure, exactly?

Why don't you just leave off?

You're now in my perma-ignore list.

GB 4ever

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On 3/12/2018 at 8:15 AM, Number95 said:

You really don't feel the need to see a non-Twilight alicorn zap a bad guy? :P

Just remember how you interpret and handle other people's opinions is up to you, but I'll still answer.

I can't think of anything they could do at this point to improve her. They could kill her off, but that will only highlight how wasteful the writers are. They could instead make more episodes where she actually gets to be a character instead of a plot device and give viewers some insight into her, but her unintentionally negative appearances are still stuck with her. So I don't know how they plan to reconcile her intended image with those past appearances.

The "better" and my preferred option would be to give her more appearances where she gets to do something meaningful to the episode, but it's still ultimately too late. Her poor appearances wouldn't have been so bad if the writers actually addressed this issue in-universe, and that option could even have made for a number of good stories.

The constant "worfing" makes Twilight's effectiveness inauthentic since it's really just Princess Celestia looking bad to make Twilight look good.

Then why do you waste time hoping that something good will happen to her? Just assume that she already means nothing to you since you say that the writers won't care about her at all. Just leave her on a bad note already.

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Nobody thinks you're inferior. I do think you tend to assume the worst of people, that when someone disagrees they are somehow disparaging you when its simply a difference of opinion.

 

I don't really have a strong opinion on Celestia. I never thought of her as a great fighter, so her worfing does not bother me. I think of her as someone kind, patient, wise, and loving-- all good qualities in a leader and can see why Twilight admires her so. I would like to see more episodes with Celestia, and while it would be nice if she gets a special power like Luna's dreamwalking it's not necessary to me. I still view her as a good character and good leader.

 

But even if I hated Celestia, I would not wish bad things to happen to her or look down on someone who liked her. I think sometimes emotions get heated and we could all use a little break to chill out before posting. It's just a fun cartoon at the end of the day, not meant to be stressed over.

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8 hours ago, 8492nd said:

Because I know you will beat every argument that I can think of with your "superior" skills. I already know I'll fail badly when I stated that I'm fine with her with the way she's presented.

 

I've already seen just how super eloquent you are in your previous posts, and I know for fact that I'll never be able to articulate my point clearly to you. Along with the others.

What's the point of me fighting this arguing battle if I know I'm going to lose anyway?

I know you'll see people who don't communicate and justify their thoughts like you do as inferior and stupid, of which I'm one.

Like this

Me: I like Celestia the way she is now.

You: Why?

Me: "I can't explain why I like her. I just do." Or "I'm not going to bother telling you why."

You: Why am I even talking to you? Since you can't and/or won't argue properly, and since your arguing skills are abysmal, you're an inferior and stupid creature.

Like that. You and everyone else who are far more articulate than me @AnalyticalGamer@Number95 , you see me as an inferior being because I can't argue like you do.

When did this become a competition and how do I claim my prize?

You're looking at it in the worst possible way.

First of all, I'm not 'super-eloquent'. English is not even my first language and all I'm doing is expressing my feelings about the character, like you are. The difference is that I'm not trying to win an argument. I just disagree and explain why.

You don't have to care about any of the things I, or anyone, think. And to be completely honest, I wish I thought the same. Then I wouldn't spend most of my time complaining when I'm talking about Celestia.

Don't be dishonest. I never implied that you or anyone here is stupid or inferior. You're playing the offended card because you feel that you can't 'disprove' what I'm saying. The thing is, you don't have too, and like others have pretty much clearly said, you don't have to care about what anyone thinks.  Everything here is opinion. The cartoon is a work of fiction, art, and as such, it is about perception and interpretation. Yours is as valid as anyone else's.

Finally, the last thing I want is to come here and make 'enemies'. But the forum is for talking and exchanging ideas. Them, I see no problem with 'agreeing to disagreeing', regardless of how good someone's argumentation is or not.

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On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I don't see my lack of criticism, but as indicated from my initial paragraph I do see how overreactive I have been as I not only promoted my interpretations, but demoted and denied everyone else's as purely illogical fallacies and hyper-critical conclusions. It's not really a lack problem, but an ignorance problem – and I apologize once more for that.

This is more a matter of perspective. Nobody has to care about someone else thinks in this case, but if one is going to compare, saying that someone os too critical, it's obviously because that other person has a less critical view on the subject. I'm wasting time talking about talking...

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I should have stuck with my original analogy, as this one I made lead to a misunderstanding of my point. Celestia is like a goddess, which is to emphasis my point that she has great power indicated by her raising the sun.

But then let's define what a goddess is. The more typical use of the word stems from myth. The problem, like I was talking to @Number95 on PM, is that 'goddess' implies more than just her power to raise the sun. A god receives worship, there is a cult involved and Celestia doesn't have that. It certainly doesn't make her less of a character, but that is not what were talking in this specific point.

So, what makes her a goddess in your view? Her control over a natural phenomenon? Then, all ponies are gods because they literally control the weather.

Is it because she does something that none else can? It starts that there are exceptions to that. Is Party Favor the god of ballons?

https://derpibooru.org/864586

Is Cadance a goddess of love? In this regard, I feel like you could say it of Luna, and stretch a little to say it of Celestia... But, to me, it feels like a stretch.

Finally, I'm not sure that raising the sun shows that she has great power. I mean, it should, but not in the cartoon, because in it's universe, raising the sun is not something so out of the ordinary that it becomes outstanding.

But, if you feel like you can say that Luna is some goddess of the night, that Cadance is a goddess of Love, that Twilight is a goddess of Friendship, and so on. And then claim that they're different than Party Favor or Starlight Glimmer because they're alicorns, then fine. I agree. But then you need to explain to me what is it that makes them special, being alicorns. Or whatever it is that you're thinking.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Actually, this does not prove anything. This could have been an easy day according to Celestia's standards, and in reality she does much harder tasks. Furthermore, the episode didn't even show the full day and tasks, especially when Luna went to a council, the doors closed, and then opened up in a seeming later time of the day with Luna looking like she ran a verbal marathon. I am saying that Celestia has really strong facial muscles that can compete with Bulk Biceps Celestia's daily routine is still unknown and it could be random for all we know – unless you can me a stable quote from Celestia herself or some other pony that doesn't tip-toe around the issue like that of the first alicorn birth Equestria has ever seen; or any other concrete evidence indicating such.

Yes. But the cartoon doesn't say any of that. It doesn't mention that it would've been an easy day for Celestia. Or that Luna had to do anything special behind those closed doors. What the episode does say is that a group of fillies didn't go to their excursion because Luna didn't smile to a photo and that is the worst that happened because Luna isn't Celestia. Why is Celestia so special if Luna can do the same that she can, without her 1000 years of experience.

That the episode didn't do much to show Celestia's routine is kind of my point: it turned this part of the episode into a joke, and then shifted the tone to something much more serious when it got to Celestia doing Luna's job. And then, Celestia needed Luna's help to succeed, while Luna never needed her sister's help. And even if you say that Luna didn't, what was the consequence? Something trivial that doesn't fit the severity of the things that can go wrong if Celestia messes up her job and the ruler.

We're now talking about poor storytelling. If you're right, then why didn't they put Luna on a real crisis? Calling Celestia for help because if not there would be a war or something simple like that?

You can ask me for a quote, but you can't provide one that doesn't contradict with what the cartoon shows. And honestly I don't have one. And that is the problem! I don't want to come here and say that Celestia sucks, but I don't feel like I can come here and say that she deserves the praise.

Seriously, if Celestia is a good 'queen' to Equestria, why doesn't the cartoon give a counterexample to what the cartoon is constantly showing? How is she doing a better job than anyone else would be doing? Let's see some of that 'in reality'.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I noticed that you assumed what should have been 'obvious' to Celestia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you said 'obvious' I am thinking of simply ending the nightmare like Luna can do. Assuming I'm correct, then this isn't that obvious, and especially not to Celestia. I thought it was obvious because I saw it before in previous episodes and I know what Luna does in the dream realm; on the contrary, Celestia has absolutely no clue as to what Luna does as far as what is canon.  

The obvious is simply using Luna's power.  Pay attention to the episode. Celestia freezes like a clueless teenager and doesn't do anything to fix the problem until Luna encourages her. SHE ACTUALLY DOES IT, but only after Luna ENCOURAGES her. She doesn't even need to teach Celestia anything. The equivalent would be Luna freezing every time she needed to do anything while doing Celestia's job and needing Celestia to come to her aid.

It is obvious that Luna is special for what she does in the dream realm, like it SHOULD be for Celestia, raising the sun and ruling the nation.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

When Celestia said she knew how to deal with Nightmare Moon, she is thinking in terms of reality – she is getting too caught up in the heat of the event in the dream. She needed Luna, who has many years of experience, to deal with this dream – and even Luna said that she never saw something like this, so don't blame Celestia for getting caught up in the heat of the moment. 

You should understand why is it that Luna's part of the episode is problematic for me.

And I don't blame Celestia. A blame the writers for not even trying. Not to mention that we saw Celestia 'dealing' with Nightmare Moon...

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I saw how hypocritical this could be if I was making that point, but I'm not. I did not claim it had anything to prove my points canonically. It is just an idea or theory that I had, and nothing more. I put that theory in my comment to point out that there can be more to Celestia than what the show indicates, and also to point out that just because the writers seem to have no interest in her doesn't mean she is a TLC - Totally Lost Cause. 

Well, then I completely agree.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

This does seem unfair, and I am giving Celestia more credit than what is due. But let's consider this for a moment. I know this is real-life and Celestia isn't, but some of the same concepts still apply – such as the existence of gravity, the presence of evil, a recognized need for politics and government; and while these mentioned have different attributes than in our world the general concept in itself applies (not saying every concept does though). We give credit to President Abraham Lincoln for the general events that happens to America when he was the leader, and everything fell on him (such as the Civil War and slavery). Same with Equestrians and Celestia. I admit I overdid it though, because Celestia herself did not carry out the actions, come up with the plans, and defeat the enemy or problem but others do, such as the mane six in season 2 episode 1 and 2 – they saved Equestria. However, Celestia would be held responsible if Equestria falls or succeeds, but only as leader. I was wrong in giving Celestia more credit than she deserved though. 

Absolutely agree. But if you're going to tell a story about President Lincoln, you need to explain his deeds that make him due credit for present events. And then, he's not a character in a world where the weather is at the control of his people, neither was he any more than a normal human being.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I need to expound on my argument. This goes along with my other statement about some real-life concepts applying to Equestrian. We give George Washington credit for many things like being the first president, we give Thomas Edison credit for inventing the light bulb, we give Supreme Leader Snoke credit for establishing the First Order, we should be consistent and give credit to Celestia for successfully establishing a thus-far flawless chain reaction of teacher/student relations that if extrapolated will produce a line of artificial alicorn princesses unless a new variable or new information is presented. True, Twilight's victories are her own, but that isn't the point – if I gave Celestia credit for Twilight's victories, then I was wrong.

Yet Celestia had much less agency in Twilight's 'carrer'. She never invented some method that gave Twilight an edge. She's different from all the other students at Celestia's school. Celestia never stablished Equestria or anything. If that was the case, we should se a host of alicorn princesses coming out of Celestia's school.

What is an artificial alicorn princess? Are you implying that Celestia and Luna are different from Twilight?

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Changing topics slightly, I disagree with you saying that all Celestia did according to canon is send Twilight books. First, Celestia willingly sent Twilight away – to ensure that she makes friends and not become like antagonist Snowfall Frost in terms of character, or antagonist Tempest Shadow in terms of philosophy on friendship, or antagonist Starlight Glimmer in terms of philosophy on cutie marks. Second, Celestia always helped Twilight when she asked for it – she couldn't help her all the time though because Celestia and Twilight were normally separated. Third, Celestia is kind and forgiving to Twilight when Twilight screws up, as seen in season 2 episode 3 and S3 Ep. 1 and 2. Fourth, Celestia monitored Twilight as a student, making sure that she grew in friendship and ultimately toward the goal of Twilight's 'graduation'. I must admit though, the cartoon could have done more with Celestia as teacher. 

Sending her away: it wasn't her choice. There was nothing else she could've done, considering she knew what would happen with her friends and Nightmare Moon's return. It's my problem with destiny that I talked to @Cinder Vel. She didn't send Twilight away simply because she'd become antisocial and all Celestia had to do is 

Helping Twilight: I never said she abandoned Twilight or something.

Celestia being kind and forgiving: I don't see the relevance. She probably is to all her students.

Monitoring Twilight: still, it was Twilight who did those things. If she had failed and Celestia and Celestia had to intervene and correct Twilight, then I'd agree.

Even if I don't agree completely, this is a good point about Celestia as a teacher. It's a shame the cartoon never let it flourish. Maybe this next season.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

That isn't the point of my statement – it is that Celestia should be credited for governing and maintaining a successful nation, like how (again pointing to my statement about real-life concepts) we credit Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, and the other presidents.  

Okay. But what exactly did she do to make Equestria a better place? Ponies take care of their problems on their own, on the city level. There are several episodes where Celestia's place in the throne could've been useful, yet she isn't even mentioned.

And that is part of my problem as a whole. She tends to be relevant only when things are going to hell and the main character has to save the day. Generally speaking.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

1.Celestia did what was necessary even if it meant losing her sister – she banished Nightmare Moon to the moon. 

Again, what else could she have done? Especially when the cartoon shows that all Nightmare Moon did was attack Celestia and fly around. The cartoon didn't even give her time to be a threat, like it's implied in the intro to the cartoon. If there was a chance that she could've balked and ruled along her sister or something like that... But she already ruled AND Nightmare Moon's intentions where contrary to that.  The way it ended up being, Celestia used the most powerful weapon she had over a fight with her sister.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

2.She stood up to Discord and saved the Equestrians from his chaotic tyranny. 

So did Luna.  And Twilight. There is no choice there. What would she do? Join him? The cartoon never showed that was an option. And to be honest, I don't even know what was it that Discord was doing that was so bad. The cartoon always liked him too much to make him a threat. Come to think of it, it wasn't even Celestia and Luna that beat him, it was the Elements of Harmony.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

3.As soon as evil was revealed, Celestia was willing to defend her subjects and sacrifice herself if need be when Chrysalis revealed her true form – and Celestia was also the first victim as soon as evil was revealed.

Again, what else could she have 'done'? Because she didn't... She failed hard, and much sooner than her 'fight'. The second time she just gets captured.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

4.Celestia willingly defended the Crystal Empire from the frozen north for as long as she could. 

Your wording is peculiar. She AND Luna did. And, again the problem is that we got an expository flashback that is meant to simply set the stage, no details, no reasons, no nothing. But still, when he came back, she sat her ass on her throne and let Twilight and Cadance deal with it.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

5. Celestia gave up her magic to one who would not use it for evil reasons instead of one who would use it to dominate all the ponies (Lord Tirek). 

No. Just no. What Celestia did was trust the wrong person to deal with the problem (double one..). And then, she gave up her power to Twilight, which she just ended up using to fight Tirek like THEY ALL should've done from the start, and did in the past. This episode makes Celestia simply stupid.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

6.Celestia doesn't tax as far as we know of, but I don't know where the castle came from either... – maybe it's like Twilight's, magically appearing out of a seed without any down payment, additional fees, or any initial cost whatsoever! I don't recall any taxing being mentioned at all in Equestria now that I think of it

I wouldn't care if she did tax the citizens. The point of taxation is that the government is supposed to use it to fund initiatives that benefit everyone. This one is more about corruption than anything more.

I don't even care that she lives in a luxurious palace. As long as she's being a decent ruler to her people.

You're opening a whole different can of worms (or parasprites). Everything she has, could very well be gifts, or funded by the people and ponies are okay with that because she deserves it, or something along those lines. Not to mention that there could be a separation between personal ownership and state ownership. It could be that she lives in a palace that isn't hers and if she ever left the throne, she'd be as penniless as she'd be homeless. The thing is, the cartoon is NEVER touching this one.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

7.Celestia isn't a dictator. That fact that Luna reigns with Celestia and there are other princesses and leaders ruling different districts of Equestrian proves this. 

If she was, I doubt I'd be having doubts about her presence ruling Equestria. Though... Does Twilight rule anything? I don't think that she does. And I honestly don't have a clue how the relationship between the Crystal Empire and the rest of Equestria works.

I'm not  sure what is your point here. Are you just saying that Celestia is nice?

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

The point is, there are many things that show that Celestia is doing good, and that she could do worse things but doesn't. 

Unfortunately, I don't see that. Can you point to a scene that shows that Celestia is doing good?

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

I'm just making a point that Celestia does things that are not openly seen throughout the TV show, but I do see now that 'spotlight characters' is an illogical argument. I gave the example of pancakes to prove my point that Celestia has been doing something nice for her sister behind the scenes for who knows how long, and this proves that Celestia is actually working behind the scenes. I'm not saying Celestia is perfect, but I am saying that no one is using the hidden key facts that disprove the 'fact' that Celestia is a terrible and totally lost character – in other words, she has both pros and cons with pros being the hidden feature.

And that is really the problem. She's a fictional character. One could make a movie showing all the great things the Nazi party has done (going for the nuclear option of examples...) and completely ignore the overwhelming evil that they wrought. The difference is that one doesn't have an other side to the story told and the other does, simply because it is real and this hypothetical movie chose not tell the whole truth. On Celestia's case, what the cartoon shows is the whole truth.

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

Luna had a rough time in that episode handling Celestia's list, indicating how hard it is to be Celestia. Even if Luna did handle some or all the tasks easily, that doesn't disprove anything, since Luna is on Celestia's level as princess of Equestria and as her sister, and they both also have many years of experience.

No, she's not. Celestia has 1000 years of experience that she doesn't. But even if that was the case, my problem isn't necessarily that. It is that the episode failed in portraying the importance of Celestia's job, even in it's own internal logic. I do recognize that Luna has a big importance and her own place. My problem is that the cartoon has undue difficulty in convincing me that Celestia does too.

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