8492nd

Do you still like Celestia?

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13 hours ago, 8492nd said:

Why don't you just leave off?

You're now in my perma-ignore list.

GB 4ever

Why don't you not twist everyone else's opinions/arguments into the worst possible meaning? Why don't you  accept that others have differing opinions of Celestia? Why don't you not make inflammatory topics?

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On 3/18/2018 at 3:51 AM, 8492nd said:

Because I know you will beat every argument that I can think of with your "superior" skills.

Hay, everyone's got to start somewhere. Maybe you can't craft a convincing argument to back up your feelings because you prefer not to try? It can be a vicious cycle, feeling inferior at something, so you don't do that thing because it makes you feel bad to fail at it, and then you never get any better because you're not getting any practice. Even if you say you don't like to analyze anything, I think you'd be happier if you figure out why you feel the way you do about something, and articulate it to other people. Then you're not at the mercy of other people's opinions anymore! Because you've got understanding and confidence in yourself.

So, why not try examining your gut response to Princess Celestia for starters? I like Celestia because... she's a just and fair monarch? She has a comforting presence? She's a very pretty horse? Subjective things such as likes and dislikes would be a good place to start, because nobody can "disprove" why you like something.

You: I like Celestia.

Me: Why?

You: I don't know. I just do.

Me: Well, I think she's lost all credibility since the writers keep Worfing her, and now she's a joke.

You: I don't know what that word means, and I don't think she's a joke.

Me: Well, to each his own, I guess. You're not much fun to debate, but I respect your opinion.

And that's how it goes in a civil conversation! Which is the only kind worth having.

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On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, Metemponychosis said:

What is an artificial alicorn princess? Are you implying that Celestia and Luna are different from Twilight?

In a sense, yes. I mean artificial in the sense of earning alicornship through some princess worthy feat, and not being born that way. I am not implying that Celestia and Luna are different; however, I personally think they are. 

 

I think we cannot argue any further; or me at least, because I see no purpose in it. I see the logic in believing what you believe about Celestia, and you have made really convincing points. You haven't made me turn against Celestia being great, but you have reminded me of my forgotten (ignored really) disappointment regarding Celestia. I think she could and should be better, but I am content with what we have right now. I actually came to this post thinking that everyone is wrong with their interpretation that Celestia is a bad character and they went way too far with it, but I seem to have become aware of my mistakes; thus, my purpose is lost. Furthermore, if I did persist in arguing, it would just be a matter of opinion.

I do have one question though - has it always been just a matter of opinion?

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14 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

I think she could and should be better,

I'm more than satisfied with this.

 

14 hours ago, AnalyticalGamer said:

I do have one question though - has it always been just a matter of opinion?

Putting it like this, it makes it seem like it's pointless to talk. 'The Internet' has a tendency of using the word 'opinion' in a very bad way.

When I say opinion, I mean it in the same way as if someone brought me a list of symptoms and signs, along with blood sample results and I say: 'Looks like X, because Y and Z.'

Of course, MLP isn't an exact science, so you can have multiple opinions and they can be right at the same time... It's a matter of interpretation and personal opinion, in the sense that people like somethings and others don't.

I like talking to people because it helps to understand why I like or not something. I like understanding why people think the way they do and I don't like being wrong.

In the case of Princess Celestia, I think that conceptually she is a great character, but that the cartoon has proven to have the capacity to make her much better. Well, I used to think several things of her and people have shown me that they were wrong. One of them is that there is a lot of room for improvement and good reason to do so.

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On 3/18/2018 at 1:51 AM, 8492nd said:

Because I know you will beat every argument that I can think of with your "superior" skills. I already know I'll fail badly when I stated that I'm fine with her with the way she's presented.

 

I've already seen just how super eloquent you are in your previous posts, and I know for fact that I'll never be able to articulate my point clearly to you. Along with the others.

What's the point of me fighting this arguing battle if I know I'm going to lose anyway?

I know you'll see people who don't communicate and justify their thoughts like you do as inferior and stupid, of which I'm one.

Like this

Me: I like Celestia the way she is now.

You: Why?

Me: "I can't explain why I like her. I just do." Or "I'm not going to bother telling you why."

You: Why am I even talking to you? Since you can't and/or won't argue properly, and since your arguing skills are abysmal, you're an inferior and stupid creature.

Like that. You and everyone else who are far more articulate than me @AnalyticalGamer@Number95 , you see me as an inferior being because I can't argue like you do.

I don't see you as inferior. I'm just expressing myself. Stop trying to win arguments and just accept difference of opinion. This doesn't matter. 

 

On 3/18/2018 at 1:19 PM, Metemponychosis said:

That the episode didn't do much to show Celestia's routine is kind of my point: it turned this part of the episode into a joke, and then shifted the tone to something much more serious when it got to Celestia doing Luna's job. And then, Celestia needed Luna's help to succeed, while Luna never needed her sister's help. And even if you say that Luna didn't, what was the consequence? Something trivial that doesn't fit the severity of the things that can go wrong if Celestia messes up her job and the ruler.

I'm not bothered by this, and I don't think the severity of consequences is necessary to the point of that episode, so I'd suggest that this imbalance could equally be corrected by making Luna's job more mundane. Although, I'd also suggest that the difference in excitement makes their mutual lack of understanding both more understandable and more relatable.

You know, I really like that episode, but I feel like my numerous reservations about it would be pretty easily solved were it just twice as long.

On 3/18/2018 at 1:19 PM, Metemponychosis said:

which she just ended up using to fight Tirek like THEY ALL should've done from the start, and did in the past.

As I said before, fighting Tirek didn't actually amount to that much, did it? Twilight solved that problem by stumbling onto some magical artifact which saved the day for her. Celestia's plans didn't work, but they were the best anyone had. 

(For the record, that's the last time I find "worfing" Celestia entirely defensible.)

On 3/15/2018 at 3:32 PM, AnalyticalGamer said:

7.Celestia isn't a dictator. That fact that Luna reigns with Celestia and there are other princesses and leaders ruling different districts of Equestrian proves this. 

Nah, just an oligarch. 

 

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16 hours ago, Thrond said:

I'm not bothered by this, and I don't think the severity of consequences is necessary to the point of that episode, so I'd suggest that this imbalance could equally be corrected by making Luna's job more mundane. Although, I'd also suggest that the difference in excitement makes their mutual lack of understanding both more understandable and more relatable.

You know, I really like that episode, but I feel like my numerous reservations about it would be pretty easily solved were it just twice as long.

Well, the only reason I think that the consequences needed to be tougher is because I don't feel convinced that Celestia's job really matters, or that she being there is better than anyone else. It's like I said in that other conversation: feel justified asking a lot of Celestia because with one thousand years of experience, she ought to be very good at what she does. But this is also just one side of my argument: the other is that the episode didn't call Luna on her lack of all the skills and knowledge Celestia would need to do her job. It's like the episode tried to make a proof of concept by absence, but failed because the concept was never really present to begin with.

Not only I prefer a magical world where everyone is special by the greatness of their own uniqueness and contribution rather than the mediocrity of no one being special, but I also think that this would go against the idea of the cutie marks and the whole idea of Twilight even becoming a princess/alicorn. Not to mention that the only reason I think Luna has any place invading dreams is that it makes her special and gives her a niche that matters to the story, along with her good intentions. If there was a host of ponies doing that, I'd think it's just terrifying.

Finally, I agree about the problem with the duration of episodes. But I also think that, if for some reason, you can't tell a story, you should tell another story. Well... It's not like it's the only episode with this problem. Also, I think that by doing Luna's part different, this problem wouldn't exist at all. Or Celestia's part throughout the series.

And I'm also tired of seeing the sisters arguing and fighting. About time they teamed up and did something work in the cartoon, and not in the rushed dumbed down way the flashbacks usually do.

17 hours ago, Thrond said:

As I said before, fighting Tirek didn't actually amount to that much, did it? Twilight solved that problem by stumbling onto some magical artifact which saved the day for her. Celestia's plans didn't work, but they were the best anyone had. 

My point is that the whole thing should have been avoided by them taking a different course of action.

Celestia's plans didn't work because they wanted to write an episode that required her to be stupid. But whatever... What did amuse me was Meghan's tweet that day, where she complained that they wouldn't let her show Twilight punching Tirek.

17 hours ago, Thrond said:

Nah, just an oligarch. 

I'd rather she was a dictator. At least she'd be less pointless, with three other princesses with a fraction her age and another one on the way.

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On 3/18/2018 at 12:58 AM, 8492nd said:

Then why do you waste time hoping that something good will happen to her? Just assume that she already means nothing to you since you say that the writers won't care about her at all. Just leave her on a bad note already.

I'm no longer hoping, actually. I was hopeful earlier into the show, but my concerns haven't been answered.

And the fact that I've made a number of posts about Celestia would hardly suggest that she means nothing to me. In fact, I've made a number of remarks about Celestia and the 2-part episodes because they mean something to me. I wanted to like what they've done and to accept their, but I can't accept the results because what they put out bothers me, and I post to figure out why.

Like I said earlier, they might as well try to patch things up with her. I may not be completely satisfied, but it's better than leaving everything broken.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

I'll grant you that, but I don't recall that episode ever truly disproving the idea that Twilight was just being overprotective, and being correct was just a coincidence. 

Plus, that was like the second time Celestia was bested, so (in my opinion) it still held some weight. 

This may go off-topic a bit, but Chrysalis as Cadance was being a dick which doesn't quite match the other descriptions (from Twilight and the flashbacks) about the real Cadance being nice. Not helping is that Fake Cadance was not very subtle about her actions, and she didn't react at all to Twilight's childhood gesture, which makes the imposter idea very likely even from Twilight's perspective. If it were the real Cadance, she could've easily said something like, "I don't have time for this, Twilight."

I suppose you're right that the episode doesn't disprove the idea of Twilight being overprotective, but the imposter angle was too obvious. It would've been interesting if that nasty Cadance was the real one, but I digress.

And fair enough about it being early into the show for Celestia's defeat. I don't know if counted the encounter with Discord as the first, but the scene with Chrysalis doesn't have as much of an impact upon rewatch since Celestia will end up as being a punching bag for the villains.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

I think the implication was supposed to be that Twilight was able to fend him off for a while because she had the magic of all three alicorns. Plus, confronting Tirek didn't actually amount to much, did it? I can see why Twilight would have accepted Celestia's ideas; even with the power of all four alicorns, Twilight was only able to fight Tirek to a standstill, so hiding might have seemed like the best idea. When Twilight found her solution, it was because asking for Discord to be freed just happened to find the last key to the box - a perfect example of her stumbling into a solution. 

Although you're correct in that Twilight is more active in both episodes, even with as hard as the latter worked to justify Celestia's absence. And don't even ask me to justify the movie. 

You're right that directly confronting Tirek didn't help, but that wasn't my point. The other alicorns chose not to directly confront with Tirek while also sitting on the sideline by transferring their powers to Twilight. They just ended up looking useless and cowardly since they contributed nothing to the solution.

Funny you should mention hiding as I wondered why the other alicorns couldn't have tried to do that so they could think of a plan to deal with Tirek and Discord.

And you are right that Twilight stumbled onto a solution, but it's more than what Celestia did. Episodes like that knock her down to emphasize the gravity of the situation, but that ends up meaning nothing because she serves no other purpose. That's what I mean when I said that Twilight's effectiveness doesn't feel authentic. Maybe Twilight might have something over Princess Celestia, and that's a fine idea on paper as no one is perfect. The problem is that since Celestia is so ineffective, making Twilight more effective isn't hard to pull off.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

Well, at least those alicorns are alleged to have some sort of role. Up to that point (and arguably still), Twilight's title meant absolutely nothing. I don't want to get into an argument about Twilight as a princess, because that will derail the thread, but no matter how little you think the other princesses have done, I'm of the opinion that Twilight in season 4 did even less to merit the title. 

Bolded the key word. I don't disagree with your assessment of Twilight as a princess in season 4, but that still doesn't answer the complaint I made earlier. And because of that, the episode ended up doing nothing for Twilight.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

My main complaint with Celestia as well as Twilight and even Luna is that they’re restricted by their mentor roles, which the show tends to equate with existing as a distant voice of wisdom. Celestia being shorthand for “power,” as something for villains to overcome, is part of that.

Like I said earlier, Celestia never does anything else in the villain episodes outside of being useless. If a new villain shows up to knock her down, the new villain hasn't actually been established a threat because that villain is just doing what other villains have just as easily done.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

I’m not opposed to an episode about her showing off, because giving her such focus would force the writers to make her struggle meaningfully. She could actually, like, demonstrate a wide range of relatable human emotions. Imagine that! Luna could use that too, TBH.

The writers testing their imagination? I don't know if that's a challenge they're willing to accept.

On 3/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Thrond said:

I can’t feel Celestia is weak, because the show so often defines her entirely through implying wisdom and power. And that was nice at first but it’s not really enough on its own. 

And the "implying" is the problem. I don't mind if Celestia is a side character. Hell, I wouldn't mind if the show was 100% slice-of-life and she was relegated to being a minor character. The problem, again, is that the show decided to bring in a number of high-stakes episodes, and she became more relevant in those episodes. Suddenly, implying that she is powerful and important doesn't work anymore because what's shown on-screen doesn't support that idea.

On 3/18/2018 at 12:19 PM, Metemponychosis said:

Helping Twilight: I never said she abandoned Twilight or something.

Celestia being kind and forgiving: I don't see the relevance. She probably is to all her students.

These traits are generic by themselves, and they don't mean that much unless there's more to Celestia or if they make a point out out of those traits.

Let me bring up Luna as a comparison to expand on my idea.

I've always criticized the "Magic Sheep" episode for not actually saying anything about Luna, and so whatever she said or did in that episode don't amount to much. Luna went after the Tantabus, but it's not like she had other options. If she didn't, she'd look like an uncaring ass hole, and we already know she is not an uncaring ass hole at the very least.

If we had learned that she blamed herself for every minor misstep she made, even blamed herself for things that she was barely involved in, or that she's overly concerned about how she appears in front of other ponies, going after the Tantabus can take on a new meaning even if that looks like a generic choice. Dealing with the Tantabus can be a chance to prove that she is worthwhile to others or even herself, for example.

So to apply this idea to Celestia caring and helpful, they can show her going out of her way to help others especially when she doesn't need to. If she's that concerned about the well-being of others, she can even feel devastated if she feels that she hasn't been helpful. Actually, "A Royal Problem" did that with Luna. For Celestia being kind, maybe she keeps a kind attitude even when others treat her like crap.

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17 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Well, the only reason I think that the consequences needed to be tougher is because I don't feel convinced that Celestia's job really matters, or that she being there is better than anyone else. It's like I said in that other conversation: feel justified asking a lot of Celestia because with one thousand years of experience, she ought to be very good at what she does. But this is also just one side of my argument: the other is that the episode didn't call Luna on her lack of all the skills and knowledge Celestia would need to do her job. It's like the episode tried to make a proof of concept by absence, but failed because the concept was never really present to begin with.

This isn't something which bothered me while watching that episode. To me, the mundane stuff does matter. I don't want to get too bogged down in this argument, because I don't think I have that many counterarguments, but I can say that this episode wasn't really about the significance of their jobs so much as the exhaustion of them. Luna's job is more dangerous and terrifying, whereas Celestia's job is more simple and grinding; both are exhausting in such different ways that the other way necessarily seems so much better. 

When you say that this imbalance suggests Celestia's job isn't all that challenging, well, I don't really have a counterargument aside from assumptions. I don't agree that it harms the episode as a mostly self-contained story, however. You've described pretty well my main problem with season 7, which is that it seemed to come up with concepts first and tried to bend characters to fit it, but this one didn't bother me as much, probably because Luna and Celestia are generally such blank, underutilized characters that I appreciate any effort to bring out their humanity. 

17 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

And I'm also tired of seeing the sisters arguing and fighting. About time they teamed up and did something work in the cartoon, and not in the rushed dumbed down way the flashbacks usually do.

I agree, but I don't necessarily want them to just stop fighting. That feels like one of the more human aspects of either's depiction in the show to me. 

11 hours ago, Number95 said:

This may go off-topic a bit, but Chrysalis as Cadance was being a dick which doesn't quite match the other descriptions (from Twilight and the flashbacks) about the real Cadance being nice. Not helping is that Fake Cadance was not very subtle about her actions, and she didn't react at all to Twilight's childhood gesture, which makes the imposter idea very likely even from Twilight's perspective. If it were the real Cadance, she could've easily said something like, "I don't have time for this, Twilight."

I suppose you're right that the episode doesn't disprove the idea of Twilight being overprotective, but the imposter angle was too obvious. It would've been interesting if that nasty Cadance was the real one, but I digress.

My opinion on this tends to shift frequently, and I'm not the biggest fan of that episode, but I feel it's heavily trying to introduce doubt by having literally everyone else trust Chrysalis. If I remember correctly, Twilight brought up the change in behaviour exactly once, and just to express resentment that the Cadance she knew had changed so much. 

11 hours ago, Number95 said:

And fair enough about it being early into the show for Celestia's defeat. I don't know if counted the encounter with Discord as the first, but the scene with Chrysalis doesn't have as much of an impact upon rewatch since Celestia will end up as being a punching bag for the villains.

Nah, Celestia probably bore more responsibility for defeating Discord than the mane six, who walked directly into his trap. The first time was in the pilot, where she just sort of disappeared for some reason. 

11 hours ago, Number95 said:

You're right that directly confronting Tirek didn't help, but that wasn't my point. The other alicorns chose not to directly confront with Tirek while also sitting on the sideline by transferring their powers to Twilight. They just ended up looking useless and cowardly since they contributed nothing to the solution.

I was gonna say they had pretty good reasoning, then I remembered the stained glass window. 

Okay, no comment. 

11 hours ago, Number95 said:

Bolded the key word. I don't disagree with your assessment of Twilight as a princess in season 4, but that still doesn't answer the complaint I made earlier. And because of that, the episode ended up doing nothing for Twilight.

As a tangent, that scene doesn't do much for me either, because I truly don't care about Twilight's role as an alicorn. For me, this episode resolved a season-long arc of ennui for her, where she was confused and left adrift by life changes and found new purpose by just reconnecting with who she was and what she was doing before. I dug that. 

11 hours ago, Number95 said:

And the "implying" is the problem. I don't mind if Celestia is a side character. Hell, I wouldn't mind if the show was 100% slice-of-life and she was relegated to being a minor character. The problem, again, is that the show decided to bring in a number of high-stakes episodes, and she became more relevant in those episodes. Suddenly, implying that she is powerful and important doesn't work anymore because what's shown on-screen doesn't support that idea.

I figure this doesn't bother me so much because I'm not terribly invested in this kind of story. In these cases I just hope for something exciting and imaginative; it's why an episode like "Shadow Play," which (aside from certain Twilight issues) is not actively flawed, but just isn't terribly exciting or imaginative. 

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19 hours ago, Number95 said:

These traits are generic by themselves, and they don't mean that much unless there's more to Celestia or if they make a point out out of those traits.

Let me bring up Luna as a comparison to expand on my idea.

I've always criticized the "Magic Sheep" episode for not actually saying anything about Luna, and so whatever she said or did in that episode don't amount to much. Luna went after the Tantabus, but it's not like she had other options. If she didn't, she'd look like an uncaring ass hole, and we already know she is not an uncaring ass hole at the very least.

If we had learned that she blamed herself for every minor misstep she made, even blamed herself for things that she was barely involved in, or that she's overly concerned about how she appears in front of other ponies, going after the Tantabus can take on a new meaning even if that looks like a generic choice. Dealing with the Tantabus can be a chance to prove that she is worthwhile to others or even herself, for example.

So to apply this idea to Celestia caring and helpful, they can show her going out of her way to help others especially when she doesn't need to. If she's that concerned about the well-being of others, she can even feel devastated if she feels that she hasn't been helpful. Actually, "A Royal Problem" did that with Luna. For Celestia being kind, maybe she keeps a kind attitude even when others treat her like crap.

Yeah. I see what you mean.

7 hours ago, Thrond said:

This isn't something which bothered me while watching that episode. To me, the mundane stuff does matter. I don't want to get too bogged down in this argument, because I don't think I have that many counterarguments, but I can say that this episode wasn't really about the significance of their jobs so much as the exhaustion of them. Luna's job is more dangerous and terrifying, whereas Celestia's job is more simple and grinding; both are exhausting in such different ways that the other way necessarily seems so much better. 

No, I see what you mean. But you have the wrong idea. Let me try to explain. It's not that I think that the mundane doesn't matter. It's that Celestia should be anything BUT mundane. And more than that, the episode's depiction of Celestia's job wasn't mundane. Mundane, for a 'queen' is, ultimately, taking decisions on how the country works and relates to other countries, decisions that actually matter in the context of ruling a nation and affect the people that live there. What the episode showed, at least the way I see it, doesn't even qualify as a parody of that. It was more like Celestia is a celebrity rather than a ruler.

7 hours ago, Thrond said:

When you say that this imbalance suggests Celestia's job isn't all that challenging, well, I don't really have a counterargument aside from assumptions. I don't agree that it harms the episode as a mostly self-contained story, however. You've described pretty well my main problem with season 7, which is that it seemed to come up with concepts first and tried to bend characters to fit it, but this one didn't bother me as much, probably because Luna and Celestia are generally such blank, underutilized characters that I appreciate any effort to bring out their humanity. 

Sounds fair. Though here it is again. I never really understand what is it that people mean when they say that they want humanity in these characters. Se seemed 'human' to me from the start, in the sense that she has feelings, desires and failings. Too many of the latter, but you get my point. It's not that I want Celestia to turn into some sort of uber-powerful being either, but I feel like she's not up to par with the others. And I don't even mean that in the way that Twilight and Cadance can fight or that Luna that has a very specific and defined niche. Celestia just feels bland, generic and pointless the way the cartoon shows her. That isn't 'being human' to me. It's being a bad character in a fiction. Particularly one like MLP.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you think that the episode did a good job of showing Celestia's job. Or you're one of those people that think that the episode wasn't trying to, to begin with, and what we saw isn't meant to represent her job as a whole (though the episode pretty much defined Luna's, again)? Because the second kinda makes sense to me.

8 hours ago, Thrond said:

I agree, but I don't necessarily want them to just stop fighting. That feels like one of the more human aspects of either's depiction in the show to me. 

Neither do I, but when all they can do with the characters is this, this cliché becomes tiresome and frustrating. Particularly if Celestia is going to behave like a stupid teenager, overconfident, clueless and panicky. It's like every time someone tries their hand at writing Celestia they forget her age and experience. So they can be 'human', and that necessarily excludes them being caricatures, stuck in the same cliché over and over.

 

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14 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you think that the episode did a good job of showing Celestia's job. Or you're one of those people that think that the episode wasn't trying to, to begin with, and what we saw isn't meant to represent her job as a whole (though the episode pretty much defined Luna's, again)? Because the second kinda makes sense to me.

Little column A, in that the conflict resolution and ceremonial nuisances both seemed pretty important, and a little column B, in that Celestia's job probably consists of a few big things in a sea of mundanities.

But I wasn't going into it feeling like I needed Celestia's job defined to me. 

Slight tangent, but one of my issues with this episode is that the stakes never made sense to me, and in that I sort of agree with your assessment that Luna's job is the problem: it seems to me that Luna's job is probably much less exciting than it's depicted in that episode, and it's weird to me that an individual nightmare is apparently so dangerous.  

14 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Neither do I, but when all they can do with the characters is this, this cliché becomes tiresome and frustrating. Particularly if Celestia is going to behave like a stupid teenager, overconfident, clueless and panicky. It's like every time someone tries their hand at writing Celestia they forget her age and experience. So they can be 'human', and that necessarily excludes them being caricatures, stuck in the same cliché over and over.

I don't really remember this being a common theme in their interactions. 

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14 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Celestia just feels bland, generic and pointless the way the cartoon shows her. 

That's a bit of an issue for me, as well, though I have different reasons from you, I think. I keep seeing shades of melancholy and impishness which endear me to her, and I'd really love to see more of that. I was really enthused that "A Royal Problem" let her have emotions outside of being wise and mentorly, and I was never bothered by the Sisters' behaviour in that. It gave me more or less what I wanted. 

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47 minutes ago, Thrond said:

Little column A, in that the conflict resolution and ceremonial nuisances both seemed pretty important, and a little column B, in that Celestia's job probably consists of a few big things in a sea of mundanities.

But I wasn't going into it feeling like I needed Celestia's job defined to me. 

Slight tangent, but one of my issues with this episode is that the stakes never made sense to me, and in that I sort of agree with your assessment that Luna's job is the problem: it seems to me that Luna's job is probably much less exciting than it's depicted in that episode, and it's weird to me that an individual nightmare is apparently so dangerous.  

So, I take it that you disagree with me that

15 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Mundane, for a 'queen' is, ultimately, taking decisions on how the country works and relates to other countries, decisions that actually matter in the context of ruling a nation and affect the people that live there. What the episode showed, at least the way I see it, doesn't even qualify as a parody of that. It was more like Celestia is a celebrity rather than a ruler.

 

48 minutes ago, Thrond said:

I don't really remember this being a common theme in their interactions. 

Really?  It defines them from the first episode.

41 minutes ago, Thrond said:

That's a bit of an issue for me, as well, though I have different reasons from you, I think. I keep seeing shades of melancholy and impishness which endear me to her, and I'd really love to see more of that. I was really enthused that "A Royal Problem" let her have emotions outside of being wise and mentorly, and I was never bothered by the Sisters' behaviour in that. It gave me more or less what I wanted. 

You realize you're asking for a two-dimensional character, because this is pretty much what she is already.

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9 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

So, I take it that you disagree with me that

On 3/23/2018 at 7:36 PM, Metemponychosis said:

Mundane, for a 'queen' is, ultimately, taking decisions on how the country works and relates to other countries, decisions that actually matter in the context of ruling a nation and affect the people that live there. What the episode showed, at least the way I see it, doesn't even qualify as a parody of that. It was more like Celestia is a celebrity rather than a ruler.

 

Yes. Heads of state, to my understanding, tend to all of the stuff Celestia was shown doing in that episode. 

I just saw the new episode, though, so I'm not sure I can still argue from a standpoint of assuming Celestia has more important duties we just don't see because this is a kids' show. I'm starting to see what you are talking about. 

9 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Really?  It defines them from the first episode.

After Nightmare Moon was defeated, I really don't recall them ever doing much fighting through the rest of seasons 1-6. 

9 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

You realize you're asking for a two-dimensional character, because this is pretty much what she is already.

That's exactly what I'm asking for. Celestia and Luna get so few opportunities to be two-dimensional. That's exactly what bothers me about them. I'm not sure what you mean by that second part. 

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1 hour ago, Thrond said:

Yes. Heads of state, to my understanding, tend to all of the stuff Celestia was shown doing in that episode.  

But not ONLY that. What I keep complaining about in that episode, is that it failed to show how her work should be, ignoring the most important part of it.

If it helps clarifying my point... Yes, those are things that heads of state do, but Celestia isn't simply a head of state. She is a 'ruler', as the cartoon calls her. And those are different things. When you say 'ruler' you imply someone that exerts power over the system. A dictator. Someone that steers the government with a certain freedom. A 'ruler' is a head of state, but not all heads of state are 'rulers'. In most presidential systems, for example, a president is the head of state, but can never be called the 'ruler', because he is subject to rule of law in all of his attributions. The powers of a 'ruler' are distributed to the members of the branches of government.  Not considering opinions on the cartoon's ability to touch on those ideas, the point is to explain why I have an issue with the episode. Showing half of something, isn't the same as showing the thing.

It's the cartoon's fault, not mine, that they called her THE ruler of Equestria (though it keeps changing between ruler and co-ruler... you get my meaning). Unless Celestia is meant to be a decorative head of state (now that is something I feel is unnecessary to put in a cartoon), I feel like I have a strong point about what I'm saying, and I still couldn't understand why ponies would say that she's the ruler, when she isn't. And even if she isn't, that still isn't explained in the episode that is supposed to be about Celestia's role.

Which brings me to the next point.

2 hours ago, Thrond said:

I just saw the new episode, though, so I'm not sure I can still argue from a standpoint of assuming Celestia has more important duties we just don't see because this is a kids' show. I'm starting to see what you are talking about. 

 

Do you mean it because you think that she just doesn't have those duties or because you see that the cartoon could touch on those?  My opinion is somewhat explained already.

2 hours ago, Thrond said:

After Nightmare Moon was defeated, I really don't recall them ever doing much fighting through the rest of seasons 1-6. 

Maybe I need to review a few episodes, because that is almost all they do when they're together.  I mean, they disagree over sending Twilight to the Crystal Empire, they fight on the 100th episode, and then there is Royal Problem. Off the top of my head, I really can't recall the sisters being nice to each other, or just working together towards something. Of course, there hasn't been many chances of that, but I mean it. I can't recall. You're right, though, when you say that they didn't really have much of a chance to do much, considering the way Royal Problem turned out.

2 hours ago, Thrond said:

That's exactly what I'm asking for. Celestia and Luna get so few opportunities to be two-dimensional. That's exactly what bothers me about them. I'm not sure what you mean by that second part. 

I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. What I meant is that Celestia seems, to me, that she already is what you'd like her to be. And is ready, as a character, to develop more. To be fair, now that I think of it, maybe it would be better to wait a few more episodes before we really talk about this. I think there's an episode coming that could give you thoughts about this.

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I feel like in the first two seasons, Celestia was presented as being practically the sole most powerful being in Equestria.  Along with enigmatic origins and apparent immortality, her character archetype was very alluring to fan-theoreticians and added some dynamics to the lore.  She presented a figure not unlike Gandolf from LoTR - existing on a higher plane than most beings, but rarely wielding her full power in order to allow people to solve their own problems.  However, the first time she encounters a villain in the plot-line (Discord), she falls utterly short of expectations and does nothing.  After that, she's repeatedly the first one to go down when problems arise, like with Chrysalis ("A Canterlot Wedding") or when the Everfree forest starts growing wild in "Princess Twilight Sparkle".  After that, I sort of start to see her in the "princess in distress" role which doesn't really have as much appeal.

In "A Royal Problem" it's revealed that her role is mostly administrative - she didn't really do anything magical but raise the sun.  This compares to Luna displaying her powerful and nuanced abilities in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" and on the several other occasions she appears in the dream-world.  Or consider Cadence, who demonstrates her ability to cast spells spanning an entire empire in both "A Canterlot Wedding" and "The Crystal Empire".  The point is that Celestia's character kind of flattens from a celestial paragon to an administrative bureaucrat as the show progresses, which is pretty disappointing after how her character was initially inflated.  As a fan of the lore, I feel like it lost something.

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12 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Do you mean it because you think that she just doesn't have those duties or because you see that the cartoon could touch on those?  My opinion is somewhat explained already.

I can't argue with your aforementioned point, because I don't really disagree; I just don't consider that a major impact on my enjoyment of the character, and there's really no conversation to be had in that. 

I'm less able to assume after the new episode because, based on how that one plays out, it no longer appears she has much authority. 

12 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Maybe I need to review a few episodes, because that is almost all they do when they're together.  I mean, they disagree over sending Twilight to the Crystal Empire, they fight on the 100th episode, and then there is Royal Problem. Off the top of my head, I really can't recall the sisters being nice to each other, or just working together towards something. Of course, there hasn't been many chances of that, but I mean it. I can't recall. You're right, though, when you say that they didn't really have much of a chance to do much, considering the way Royal Problem turned out.

Oh yeah, the 100th episode. Forgot about that. It probably seems that way because all the times they do agree are relatively bland; I'm still waiting for a bonding episode between the two, because at this point it's comically overdue. 

12 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. What I meant is that Celestia seems, to me, that she already is what you'd like her to be. And is ready, as a character, to develop more. To be fair, now that I think of it, maybe it would be better to wait a few more episodes before we really talk about this. I think there's an episode coming that could give you thoughts about this.

Mostly I'm just dissatisfied, as I mentioned, with Celestia and Luna being pigeonholed into their roles as rulers and mentors. Doesn't let them do much. Perhaps they are, more or less, the characters I want them to be, but they don't get to show even that much. That's why I was satisfied with "A Royal Problem." We can probably talk more after I see that episode you're referring to, yes. 

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8 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

@ThrondWell, alright then. The only reason I felt like I needed to responde is because it's not about enjoying the character. I do. The problem is, shall we call it, technical problems of the character.

I don't really agree with this supposedly objective approach to analyzing narratives, but I don't want to argue about that, so okay. 

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21 minutes ago, Thrond said:

I don't really agree with this supposedly objective approach to analyzing narratives, but I don't want to argue about that, so okay. 

You can't say that you disagree and then say that you don't want to talk about it. You already are when you mention it.

Chill. If you don't want to talk about it, obviously, I'm more than fine at leaving it at that. I just don't want you to leave with the idea that I think that you're wrong and I'm right. I think that your interpretation is every bit as valid as I think mine is. All I meant is that I don't dislike the character, like you implied. It's a different kind of problem.

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On 3/23/2018 at 10:09 AM, Thrond said:

My opinion on this tends to shift frequently, and I'm not the biggest fan of that episode, but I feel it's heavily trying to introduce doubt by having literally everyone else trust Chrysalis. If I remember correctly, Twilight brought up the change in behaviour exactly once, and just to express resentment that the Cadance she knew had changed so much. 

The problem is that the episode doesn't exactly do well in trying to convince the viewer that Twilight might be wrong about Fake Cadance, and this again isn't helped with Fake Cadance's over-the-top behavior. And that over-the-top behavior made everyone else dumb so they couldn't be suspicious.

On 3/23/2018 at 10:09 AM, Thrond said:

I was gonna say they had pretty good reasoning, then I remembered the stained glass window. 

Okay, no comment. 

I don't think that could've or would've stopped Discord from telling Tirek about the existence of alicorn Twilight.

And I know there are a number of complaints about leaving that window up, but I don't find find that as problematic because the story already forced the other alicorns to be useless from the start.

On 3/23/2018 at 10:09 AM, Thrond said:

I figure this doesn't bother me so much because I'm not terribly invested in this kind of story. In these cases I just hope for something exciting and imaginative; it's why an episode like "Shadow Play," which (aside from certain Twilight issues) is not actively flawed, but just isn't terribly exciting or imaginative. 

I suppose this might come down to taste. For me, I was more interested in these kinds of stories. I didn't mind if they weren't very common as long as they were good. The problem is that NONE of the 2-parters are good. And then it's no surprise that the big movie wasn't impressive, but I digress. The only ones I liked are the season 1 premiere and season 5 premiere, and they're just decent at best. The rest range from being average to being unreasonably awful.

And that's why I (eventually) lost interest in the show. It's too late for the show to actually make that small part I was more interested in good. The show may be more slice-of-life oriented, but I'd like to point out that the show isn't disinterested in making 2-part episodes since they are stuck to almost all of the seasons' beginning and ending. Being 2 episodes long mean that they're more ambitious, and it's baffling that the more ambitious efforts aren't good. The creative team ends up looking dumb for not sticking to their strengths.

On 3/24/2018 at 9:33 AM, Thrond said:

Slight tangent, but one of my issues with this episode is that the stakes never made sense to me, and in that I sort of agree with your assessment that Luna's job is the problem: it seems to me that Luna's job is probably much less exciting than it's depicted in that episode, and it's weird to me that an individual nightmare is apparently so dangerous.  

What might add to that weirdness is that Luna hasn't struggled with other nightmares in previous episodes. Well, there is her season 5 episode, but that wasn't a good episode.

18 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

After Nightmare Moon was defeated, I really don't recall them ever doing much fighting through the rest of seasons 1-6. 

18 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Maybe I need to review a few episodes, because that is almost all they do when they're together.  I mean, they disagree over sending Twilight to the Crystal Empire, they fight on the 100th episode, and then there is Royal Problem. Off the top of my head, I really can't recall the sisters being nice to each other, or just working together towards something. Of course, there hasn't been many chances of that, but I mean it. I can't recall. You're right, though, when you say that they didn't really have much of a chance to do much, considering the way Royal Problem turned out.

Those "fights" are just squabbles at best, and they don't go anywhere or really do anything for the sisters in the long run.

In "The Crystal Empire", Luna is just someone who disagrees with Celestia's approach. It's not like Luna tried to go to the empire herself and go against her sister's approach.

"A Royal Problem" suffered for trying to build on a relationship that never existed in the show. Even worse is that neither of them apparently tried to fix this conflict while it was still going on, so I kept asking what happened before the conflict came to a boil.

9 hours ago, Thrond said:

I'm still waiting for a bonding episode between the two, because at this point it's comically overdue. 

An episode like that should've happened back in - I don't know - season 1.

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18 minutes ago, Number95 said:

The problem is that the episode doesn't exactly do well in trying to convince the viewer that Twilight might be wrong about Fake Cadance, and this again isn't helped with Fake Cadance's over-the-top behavior. And that over-the-top behavior made everyone else dumb so they couldn't be suspicious.

Yeah, okay, fair. 

18 minutes ago, Number95 said:

I don't think that could've or would've stopped Discord from telling Tirek about the existence of alicorn Twilight.

And I know there are a number of complaints about leaving that window up, but I don't find find that as problematic because the story already forced the other alicorns to be useless from the start.

Come to think of it, I don't really know why they thought Twilight could hide. Maybe they assumed the time it would take for Tirek to notice the stained glass, or for Discord to decide to be straightforwardly useful rather than a pain in the ass to everyone, would buy Twilight time? That's pure conjecture on my part. 

The princesses are certainly peripheral to that story, but I just don't recall finding their plans unreasonable in any of my numerous viewings of that episode. 

18 minutes ago, Number95 said:

I suppose this might come down to taste. For me, I was more interested in these kinds of stories. I didn't mind if they weren't very common as long as they were good. The problem is that NONE of the 2-parters are good. And then it's no surprise that the big movie wasn't impressive, but I digress. The only ones I liked are the season 1 premiere and season 5 premiere, and they're just decent at best. The rest range from being average to being unreasonably awful.

And that's why I (eventually) lost interest in the show. It's too late for the show to actually make that small part I was more interested in good. The show may be more slice-of-life oriented, but I'd like to point out that the show isn't disinterested in making 2-part episodes since they are stuck to almost all of the seasons' beginning and ending. Being 2 episodes long mean that they're more ambitious, and it's baffling that the more ambitious efforts aren't good. The creative team ends up looking dumb for not sticking to their strengths.

I like a majority of those episodes a fair bit, so I'd definitely agree about it coming down to taste. 

18 minutes ago, Number95 said:

"A Royal Problem" suffered for trying to build on a relationship that never existed in the show. Even worse is that neither of them apparently tried to fix this conflict while it was still going on, so I kept asking what happened before the conflict came to a boil.

For me, I think it was the lack of prior development for that relationship which made it work for me. As with most of season 7, I took the episode as writing the characters in such a way as to suit a moral, but I really liked that moral and didn't find either of them annoying, so I was able to roll with it. 

I gather that it was just the sisters growing increasingly frustrated each other over an unending series of irritations and disappointments, which were exacerbated by just how draining both of their jobs are. That episode pretty explicitly stated that both of them are incredibly busy. 

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1 hour ago, Number95 said:

Those "fights" are just squabbles at best, and they don't go anywhere or really do anything for the sisters in the long run.

In "The Crystal Empire", Luna is just someone who disagrees with Celestia's approach. It's not like Luna tried to go to the empire herself and go against her sister's approach.

"A Royal Problem" suffered for trying to build on a relationship that never existed in the show. Even worse is that neither of them apparently tried to fix this conflict while it was still going on, so I kept asking what happened before the conflict came to a boil.

They do in the sense that they never work in unison. But you're right, though.

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On 3/23/2018 at 1:15 PM, Number95 said:

I'm no longer hoping, actually. I was hopeful earlier into the show, but my concerns haven't been answered.

And the fact that I've made a number of posts about Celestia would hardly suggest that she means nothing to me. In fact, I've made a number of remarks about Celestia and the 2-part episodes because they mean something to me. I wanted to like what they've done and to accept their, but I can't accept the results because what they put out bothers me, and I post to figure out why.

Like I said earlier, they might as well try to patch things up with her. I may not be completely satisfied, but it's better than leaving everything broken.

@Number95Then go and say that all those recent eps where Celestia finally got focus have all been wasted. If she is a lost cause to you, then I'll admit defeat to you and say she is indeed a lost cause. In fact, she always was ever since the show's inception. Go say that Celestial Advice, Royal Problem and possibly Horse Play were the last chances the writers had to make Celestia grand for you and that they fked it up for the last time for you. And I'll also admit that my view of liking Celestia the way she is now is completely wrong, if it makes you more happy. You've already proven that you've won this argument and I lost pathetically, so I'm throwing in the towel for you.

On 3/19/2018 at 12:48 AM, Metemponychosis said:

When did this become a competition and how do I claim my prize?

You don't have to care about any of the things I, or anyone, think. And to be completely honest, I wish I thought the same. Then I wouldn't spend most of my time complaining when I'm talking about Celestia.

Don't be dishonest. I never implied that you or anyone here is stupid or inferior. You're playing the offended card because you feel that you can't 'disprove' what I'm saying. The thing is, you don't have too, and like others have pretty much clearly said, you don't have to care about what anyone thinks.  Everything here is opinion. The cartoon is a work of fiction, art, and as such, it is about perception and interpretation. Yours is as valid as anyone else's.

 

I am seriously getting the implication that you think I am somehow putting up a front. I don't feel I can't disprove you. I KNOW I can't disprove you. I am horrible at arguments because I have tried to be as non-confrontational as possible, yet people force me to defend my point when I don't want to because I never wanted to be in arguments in the first place. I've been pushed over the brink to the point where I say "That's it. My patience for this is done."

And just how do you even know that this "fiction or art work" is about perception or interpretation? Because this is like in DC or Marvel. Every fan claws at each other to find only one objective canonicity. That also applies to MLP.

And why do you even bother saying I shouldn't care about what you think or what everyone else thinks about her? Because over the many times I did that before, I received threats and blackmails for not agreeing to the norm.

On 3/20/2018 at 1:17 AM, Friendship is Horses said:

Hay, everyone's got to start somewhere. Maybe you can't craft a convincing argument to back up your feelings because you prefer not to try? It can be a vicious cycle, feeling inferior at something, so you don't do that thing because it makes you feel bad to fail at it, and then you never get any better because you're not getting any practice. Even if you say you don't like to analyze anything, I think you'd be happier if you figure out why you feel the way you do about something, and articulate it to other people. Then you're not at the mercy of other people's opinions anymore! Because you've got understanding and confidence in yourself.

So, why not try examining your gut response to Princess Celestia for starters? I like Celestia because... she's a just and fair monarch? She has a comforting presence? She's a very pretty horse? Subjective things such as likes and dislikes would be a good place to start, because nobody can "disprove" why you like something.

You: I like Celestia.

Me: Why?

You: I don't know. I just do.

Me: Well, I think she's lost all credibility since the writers keep Worfing her, and now she's a joke.

You: I don't know what that word means, and I don't think she's a joke.

Me: Well, to each his own, I guess. You're not much fun to debate, but I respect your opinion.

And that's how it goes in a civil conversation! Which is the only kind worth having.

You want to know what I think? FINE THEN I'LL GIVE IT YOU.

I LIKE CELESTIA BECAUSE OF HER BENEVOLENT PERSONALITY. I DON'T GIVE A FK IF SHE'S DEFEATED EVERYTIME. I DON'T GIVE A FK IF SHE'S THE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS. THE ONLY THING THAT REMAINS IN MY MIND IS HER KIND PERSONALITY.

Now go and think if my say is not worth disproving. Now go and say my thought on her is subjective. Or is it my say on her is an exception and that it deserves to be disproven because it's completely unfounded and sounds like these are words that can only come from the mouth of a crazy person? Or if I'm on some substance and it's affecting my brain?

And another thing. Even if I encountered the same definition for worfing, IT STILL MAKES NO SENSE TO ME. EVER.

 

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