DawnInPonyville

Starlight Glimmer is not OP

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9 minutes ago, Ebon Scar said:

I still think Alicorn HAS to have some sort of magical boost. Maybe not ginormous. Maybe it's like getting a new class in MMO and thus unlocking level cap to become even more powerful as time goes on. ^ ^"

Why would they?

Nothing is ever even hinted at in canon. In fact we're told by the staff that Twilight's life span won't even increase like Celestia's.

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7 minutes ago, Ebon Scar said:

She was certainly presented as such. Also, she did live for a very long time. She may well be immortal at this point. Or maybe not, who is to say~

That's just it. She wasn't presented as such in canon. It was mostly fan fictions that did this.

We only actually had a profile released by Hasbro during season 1 that said that her strong magic was rumored to have allowed her to live to over 1,000 years old, and that she raised\lowered the sun\moon. This wasn't even in the show, it was on promotional material.

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2 minutes ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

Why would they?

Nothing is ever even hinted at in canon. In fact we're told by the staff that Twilight's life span won't even increase like Celestia's.

Oh yeah, they did say that. I just want to belive there is more to this transformation than a pair of wings and a shiny new title. ^ ^" They already broke balance of the group by that. Tis was 2 Unicorns, 2 Pegasi, 2 Earth Ponies. Now it's 1 Alicorn and one Unicorn. Huh. Adding Starlight re-balances the group though) X)

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7 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

I would argue Twilight is far more adapt as a fighter than some wanabe-dictator who spent the last few years just bullying people into following her through mental and physical torture. 

Based on ... a 30 second scene of her being used as a machine-gun by Pinkie in the season 2 finale?


Starlight had the drop on Twilight because she got there first and had time to prepare. She set an ambush.

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3 minutes ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

That's just it. She wasn't presented as such in canon. It was mostly fan fictions that did this.

We only actually had a profile released by Hasbro during season 1 that said that her strong magic was rumored to have allowed her to live to over 1,000 years old, and that she raised\lowered the sun\moon. This wasn't even in the show, it was on promotional material.

Hmm...Now that you mentioned this, I got to agree. And even beyond that, all her victories were either with aid of Luna or the Elements. So yeah, she is pretty underpowered compared to what fans made up. ^ ^"

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1 minute ago, Ebon Scar said:

Oh yeah, they did say that. I just want to belive there is more to this transformation than a pair of wings and a shiny new title. ^ ^" They already broke balance of the group by that. Tis was 2 Unicorns, 2 Pegasi, 2 Earth Ponies. Now it's 1 Alicorn and one Unicorn. Huh. Adding Starlight re-balances the group though) X)

I don't think that Celestia could simply increase another character's magic like that. My headcanon says that Twilight's magic is powerful because of skill, rather than actual power. She's just very good at using it, rather than her actually being that more powerful. She says something to this effect when battling Queen Crysalis in the comics. That her power is mostly because she practices a lot and has a lot of knowledge, so it can't be absorbed.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z

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1 minute ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

I don't think that Celestia could simply increase another character's magic like that. My headcanon says that Twilight's magic is powerful because of skill, rather than actual power. She's just very good at using it, rather than her actually being that more powerful. She says something to this effect when battling Queen Crysalis in the comics. That her power is mostly because she practices a lot and has a lot of knowledge, so it can't be absorbed.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z

Yeah, if it was DBZ, endseason cliffhangers would stretch far longer~

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Regardless of Op's statement I will argue that Starlight Glimmer is overpowered. That's her thing. It's what makes Starlight relevant and sets her apart from just being another sociopath, she's a magically overpowered sociopath.

Gods I hope this doesn't end up being another wall of text. 

 

On several cases Starlight related episodes have begun with a huge power showcase coming from Starlight in a vain attempt to make her relevant. Honestly the mane 6 had absolutely no reason to keep Starlight around if she wasn't so magically overpowered. She finishes one of Starswirl's broken spells, she stands toe to toe with an Alicorn, brandishes brainwashing, powerful cutie-mark altering and various other spells with reckless abandon for the safety and desires of others. Her magical power has been severely inflated for the sake of plot convenience on several occasions already:

Cutie-mark removal stick? Just take the staff away or break it, problem solved. Why bother with Starlight anyway?

The season 5 finale fight with Twilicorn, we have to find a way to explain why Twilight doesn't just demolish her with magic and let history go back the way it was. Hell we can get a fight scene out of it too.

Quick we have to redo Lesson Zero, but worse! Just have Starlight brainwash the Mane 6 because of course she can do that.

 

To address the comparison between Starlight and S1-3 Twilight... Twilight Sparkle, the Element of Magic. Let that sink in for a bit. Through Seasons 1 and 3 she was a powerful unicorn, however nothing she's actually done has come even close to what Starlight manages to pull off without even trying. Even her Alicorn transformation was attributed to her understanding of Friendship rather than Magical power. 

During Boast Busters, Lesson Zero, Sonic Rainboom and multiple other episodes Twilight has used simple and advanced spells. Some simple spells were on a larger scale and most of the real spells she's done have had a significant strain on her while Starlight accomplishes all of that in a much shorter time-span and with little effort.

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On 11/6/2016 at 1:03 PM, The Doctor said:

It's inconsistent writing. 

Sombra was presented in "The Crystal Empire" as regional threat.  Celestia and Luna didn't even need the Elements.  Suddenly he's mounting a threat to Equestira in an alternate time line (though admittedly, time travel by it's very nature is stupid, so every alternate timeline making no logical sense isn't surprising.  I can forgive it).

 

Same with Tirek.  No elements were needed to defeat him.  Celestia and Luna don't confront Tirek when he's weak for no other reason than that Meghan wanted a big stupid fight in the final act. 

Chrysalis needed to be super-charged with more love power than she ever had before in order to take out Celestia (and Chrysalis was as surprised as anyone that she won).  The mane 6 tear throw hoards of drones like a hot knife through butter.  Now all the Princesses and Mane 6 can be taken out by a few drones without any problem. 

 

It's a reason I really don't care much for the 2 part episodes of this show anymore.  The writers have long since decided to put spectacle over substance.

 

Actually, they never said whether or not they needed the Elements for Sombra and Tirek, only that they defeated them in general (and even then, Sombra was able to reality-warp an entire city-kingdom away before they could finish the job -- sounds at-least-borderline godlike (which makes sense, given his confirmed basis upon Sauron), IMO) -- presumably because we'd gotten the gist by now.

 

And as for "now all the Princesses and Mane 6 can be taken out by a few drones without any problem," the element of surprise (along with, presumably, shards of that Kryptonite throne) could be a pretty-practical justification.

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But we know the McGuffin throne wasn't used, because Luna could use her dream magic. 

 

As for Sombra, we see Celestia and Luna use regular magic against him.  The elements weren't' seen in that flashback.

 

Tirek, we're not told exactly, but youd think that when Celestia was delivering the exposition she'd have said they used them before, and them being gone, is the reason they can't use them now.

Keep in mind Celestia and Luna protected Equestria for untold number of years before Discord came along. 

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@Aaargh Zombies

I meant exactly what I said. Because the level of detail that was put into her and how she was explored as a character denotes lack of effort for the reasons I pointed out.

4 hours ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

She'd vanish and be just another plot hole\loose end. As it was she was popular enough to return for the finale, but she might not have.

If that was the case, I wouldn't be complaining about it. Because...

4 hours ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

Starlight's past was left a total mystery at first, which suited the episode.

If it was left at that, it would still be bad, but it wouldn't bother. Since she's pretty much Mane Seventh, she deserves a better exploration of her past; or better: the audience deserves it. It's not like I'm condemning the cartoon for lacking this. All I'm saying is that it's lacking and as soon as I feel that this is no longer a problem, I won't complain about it anymore.

 

There is also a difference between "mysterious" and "lacking". Luna's power for entering dreams is mysterious.  We don't understand how it works, why does she have it, how did she get it. Knowing that would be fine, but not knowing these things don't get in the way of Luna's importance inside the story or the development of her character as she appears in episodes. Starlight Glimmer's past is lacking because there is nothing explaining what makes her different from Lyra and more similar to Twilight. At the same time, there is Twilight that was, indeed presented as a special case, but not only that, there is a reason she's good at magic. It's a problem with the narrative cohesion. Why is Twilight supposed to be special, if Starlight Glimmer's presence says that any Joe out of some unnamed hole can match her magic skills? And like I said, this is easy to fix.

 

You seem to think that her little flashback is enough, but to me it isn't. That is enough for a character like Sky Stinger, that had ego problems and an unrealistic view of his skills. While these characters live in a completely different world from ours, we're supposed to connect to their motivations, fears and feelings. No adult wants to conquer to world because one friend left when they were kids, neither do we gain specialized knowledge from it.

 

Twilight's background is "she's a gifted unicorn, studious, committed to her goal of learning magic, went to Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, studied under the princess' personal tutelage", and others. Even if this is simply because she had more time devoted to her, being what can be considered a main character, this explains her magical abilities. If Twilight turns a frog into an orange, that fits. If Luna creates a nightmare monster that escapes her control, it fits. But if Lyra suddenly started turning ponies into little lyres because they didn't like her song, that is a stretch. 

4 hours ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

Equally, if we compare Starlight to other villains from children's cartoons she's not unusual. Most civilians only get backstory through narration or exposition.

No she's not. Sombra for example, has no backstory (in the cartoon), while she does.  And that is more than fine for Sombra unless he comes back and starts making friends and upstaging better established characters. That is the problem. It would be better to leave SG's past empty than to shove in some half-assed excuse at a backstory. By the way, I wasn't aware that Twilight is in the military.

Edited by Metemponychosis
Edited for clarification.
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3 hours ago, The Doctor said:

But we know the McGuffin throne wasn't used, because Luna could use her dream magic. 

 

As for Sombra, we see Celestia and Luna use regular magic against him.  The elements weren't' seen in that flashback.

 

Tirek, we're not told exactly, but youd think that when Celestia was delivering the exposition she'd have said they used them before, and them being gone, is the reason they can't use them now.

Keep in mind Celestia and Luna protected Equestria for untold number of years before Discord came along. 

 

For all we know, Chrysalis's grunts simply hadn't caught up to Luna yet, and them having shards of said MacGuffin throne would also explain how they were able to force her out of her own domain at all.

 

Also, it should be noted that that Crystal Empire flashback featured Celestia and Luna as darkened silhouettes, and given their respective magic's awfully rainbow-looking texture, it's possible they were simply channeling the Elements offscreen or something.

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58 minutes ago, Anti-Villain said:

 

For all we know, Chrysalis's grunts simply hadn't caught up to Luna yet, and them having shards of said MacGuffin throne would also explain how they were able to force her out of her own domain at all.

 

Also, it should be noted that that Crystal Empire flashback featured Celestia and Luna as darkened silhouettes, and given their respective magic's awfully rainbow-looking texture, it's possible they were simply channeling the Elements offscreen or something.

Or it was just a lazy writer more concerned with spectacle that story and wanted to get all of Equestria's power block out of the way with as little creative effort as possible by employing a trope so old and stale that even Disney has stopped using it. 

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15 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Or it was just a lazy writer more concerned with spectacle that story and wanted to get all of Equestria's power block out of the way with as little creative effort as possible by employing a trope so old and stale that even Disney has stopped using it. 

 

Which trope exactly?

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24 minutes ago, Anti-Villain said:

 

Which trope exactly?

Damsel in Distress trope.  The trope that has Celestia and Luna be portrayed as weak and helpless leaders in each and every 2 part finale this show has done.  The trope that's basically turned them both into Princess Peach, there only to serve the role of being captured in order to build tension.

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3 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Damsel in Distress trop.  The trope that has Celestia and Luna be portrayed as weak and helpless leaders in each and every 2 part finale this show has done.  The trope that's basically turned them both into Princess Peach, there only to serve the role of being captured in order to build tension.

 

At least their Final Smashes would probably be better than hers. :lol::ajlol:

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On 06/11/2016 at 7:52 PM, The Doctor said:

But we know the McGuffin throne wasn't used, because Luna could use her dream magic.

There's all kinds of "reasons" for that. Maybe Luna hadn't been taken to the Changeling kingdom at that time, or maybe dream walking isn't magic. I guess that it's probably just another unexplained plothole that will be brought up at a comicon panel.

 

On 06/11/2016 at 7:52 PM, The Doctor said:

As for Sombra, we see Celestia and Luna use regular magic against him.  The elements weren't' seen in that flashback.

I'm not sure of the timeline for this one, was Sombra before or after Discord? Had the elements been discovered by then?

It's probably just another plothole.

 

On 06/11/2016 at 7:52 PM, The Doctor said:

Tirek, we're not told exactly, but youd think that when Celestia was delivering the exposition she'd have said they used them before, and them being gone, is the reason they can't use them now.

The one thing that most of these flashbacks have in common is that they don't really tell us anything except that a villain was defeated. They seem to be carefully written so that they don't create canon that could be contradicted later on.

In the show we never really find out any background details at all. They are only covered in the comics.

Do we know if the Elements are useful against Tirek, couldn't he just suck up their magic as well?

On 06/11/2016 at 7:52 PM, The Doctor said:

Keep in mind Celestia and Luna protected Equestria for untold number of years before Discord came along. 

It's never actually said in Canon what they protected Equestria from. Maybe it was just Griffins, or bad mane days?

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On 06/11/2016 at 10:09 PM, Metemponychosis said:

@Aaargh Zombies

Twilight's background is "she's a gifted unicorn, studious, committed to her goal of learning magic, went to Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, studied under the princess' personal tutelage", and others. Even if this is simply because she had more time devoted to her, being what can be considered a main character, this explains her magical abilities. If Twilight turns a frog into an orange, that fits. If Luna creates a nightmare monster that escapes her control, it fits. But if Lyra suddenly started turning ponies into little lyres because they didn't like her song, that is a stretch.

Let's be realistic here. This isn't a slice of life Anime, or one of those Dragonball style shows where the villain spends 25% of their face time monologing about their back story. It's an American cartoon for girls aged approximately 7-12.

Most of the character in this show have scant backstory. Most of the Mane 6's had almost zero backstory until Cutie Mark Chronicles. Which we didn't get until the first season was almost over. Since then we've been told almost nothing. A lot of what people think that they know is headcanon rather than something that was explicitly stated.

We went 6 seasons and all we knew about Fluttershy was that she was bullied in flight camp and she discovered her Cutie Mark when she fell of a cloud and visited the surface for what is presumably the fist time. She literally has no other backstory. We found out in season 6 that her parents are both shy as well, so we can headcanon that this is why she is shy, but that's about it.

We know even less about Rainbow Dash.

Scootaloo is even more of a mystery. What do we actually know about her?

On 06/11/2016 at 10:09 PM, Metemponychosis said:

@Aaargh Zombies

Twilight's background is "she's a gifted unicorn, studious, committed to her goal of learning magic, went to Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, studied under the princess' personal tutelage",

It took us 23 episodes to find this out. CSGU wasn't even mentioned until episode 23, and Twilight IS the main character. We knew that she studied under the princess in the pilot, but their exact relationship wasn't mentioned.

 

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On 06/11/2016 at 11:39 PM, Anti-Villain said:

Also, it should be noted that that Crystal Empire flashback featured Celestia and Luna as darkened silhouettes, and given their respective magic's awfully rainbow-looking texture, it's possible they were simply channeling the Elements offscreen or something.

Did Celestia actually say that it was her and Luna in that episode, or did she just imply that it was?

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I am pretty sure Discord was the very first. Celestia said that long ago Discord ruled over Equestria in disharmony and chaos. Later on we saw how regal sisters discovered the Elements and turned him into stone. But that also contradicts the winter celebration they have, as the three races plant regal sisters' flag. Come to think of it, how could three races be at war with each other but also all be under regal sisters' rule? And where is Discord in that story if he ruled Equestria at that time. He came later? Eesh, CONTINUITY, please come out and explain yourself! >~<"

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On 07/11/2016 at 0:38 AM, The Doctor said:

Or it was just a lazy writer more concerned with spectacle that story and wanted to get all of Equestria's power block out of the way with as little creative effort as possible by employing a trope so old and stale that even Disney has stopped using it. 

I'm sorry, but if they'd taken more time to explain things I feel that you'd have been one of the first to say that the episode was "rushed" or "poorly paced".

You'd prefer a 3 part finale?

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3 minutes ago, Aaargh Zombies said:

Did Celestia actually say that it was her and Luna in that episode, or did she just imply that it was?

She implied over the slideshow.

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On 07/11/2016 at 0:38 AM, The Doctor said:

Or it was just a lazy writer more concerned with spectacle that story and wanted to get all of Equestria's power block out of the way with as little creative effort as possible by employing a trope so old and stale that even Disney has stopped using it. 

Disney hasn't stopped using it. They are still doing it with shows like the animated version of the Avengers.

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On 07/11/2016 at 1:18 AM, The Doctor said:

Damsel in Distress trope.  The trope that has Celestia and Luna be portrayed as weak and helpless leaders in each and every 2 part finale this show has done.  The trope that's basically turned them both into Princess Peach, there only to serve the role of being captured in order to build tension.

They aren't the main characters, so it's acceptable.

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21 minutes ago, Ebon Scar said:

I am pretty sure Discord was the very first. Celestia said that long ago Discord ruled over Equestria in disharmony and chaos. Later on we saw how regal sisters discovered the Elements and turned him into stone. But that also contradicts the winter celebration they have, as the three races plant regal sisters' flag. Come to think of it, how could three races be at war with each other but also all be under regal sisters' rule? And where is Discord in that story if he ruled Equestria at that time. He came later? Eesh, CONTINUITY, please come out and explain yourself! >~<"

It's simple, when the Mane 6 did the Hearths Warming play they raised the modern flag, not the historical one. Like when you do a thanksgiving play in school and have the modern US flag even though the pilgrims would have raised the British flag at the time.

Celestia and Luna were still foals during the events of Hearths Warming Eve, the flag depicts them as adults. So it's not the original flag from the time.

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