Nova S. Aurora

Politics (of Skyrim)

Who is right?  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. Who should control Skyrim?

    • SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS! PRAISE TALOS!
      2
    • FOR THE EMPEROR, LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!
      5
    • I'm an elf.
      1


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After going through yet another playthrough of Skyrim, this time Special Edition, I've asked a lot of questions regarding the lore of the elder scrolls universe.

Namely, who is correct in the Civil War? The Imperials? Or the Stormcloaks?

The Imperials/Imperialistic Nords believe that Skyrim, as part of the Empire, needs to follow the White-Gold Concordat and outlaw Talos worship.
The Stormcloaks believe that Skyrim is a sovereign entity, and that as such, do not need to follow the Concordat, and are free to worship Talos.

I, personally, agree with the Imperials for two primary reasons:
A. They had just lost the war with the Aldmeri Dominion and are struggling to keep the peace. This was necessary to keep the Imperial City and keep the Empire together.
This copy-paste is essentially a self-explanatory reason:

"On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years."


B. Talos is not a god. Talos/Tiber Septim has a very long and convoluted history around him. Through this, I need to explain what a dragonbreak is. A dragonbreak is when a large catastrophic or important point in history occurs that can result in completely different futures. This dragonbreak welds all of these possibilities together into a pseudo-future where all of the possibilities happened. Or in other words, if Event X could result in A, B, or C, a dragon break would create a future of ABC. Tiber Septim's dragonbreak was after he obtained control of Numidium from the Tribunal, reconstructed it, and activated it. Here is a copy-paste from the TES wiki:


During the Break, Tiber Septim utilized the power of the Numidium to conquer the rest of Tamriel and purge all the royal families who did not vehemently support Tiber's reign. Due to the memory altering effects of a Dragon Break, this event is remembered by the inhabitants of Tamriel only in obscure legend.How long this break lasted is not known exactly, but it most likely lasted throughout the entire period Numidium was active, ending only when the Underking temporarily destroyed the great golem. According to some sources, another heavily hit area by the Break was the Altmeri city of Alinor, which was subject to a siege by Numidium, resulting in the city surrendering within an hour of the attack, but a battle that lasted from the Merethic Era until long into the Fifth Era, due to the Numidiums time-wrecking capabilities.


After all of this, Tiber Septim is said to have achieved CHIM, "It is best understood as a state of being which allows for escape from all known laws and limitations." He used this ability to change Cyrodiil from a vast jungle into the forested plains seen in TES IV. In a similar manner, Vivec from TES III is said to achieved CHIM, and stopped a meteor from hitting the city of Vivec (this meteor landing after the death of Vivec is said to have caused the eruption of Red Mountain). Similar to how Vivec was worshiped as a living god by the Dunmer, Tiber Septim was worshiped as a divine. Despite the fact that Vivec was infact, mortal, and so was Tiber Septim.

I am open to others' perspectives on this matter, and am interested to see what others say. This is the reasoning behind this thread.

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I'm an elf, haha
But yes, I equally agree, I sided with the empire.
I actually went to both Windhelm and Solitude the first time, and probed the waters, trying to picture what their goals and ideas were.
Turns out from what I saw that Stormcloaks were just a bunch of pricks, Ulfric being a racist pretentious lord of all pricks, and when I talked to Jarl Elisif the fair, she kinda convinced me to side with the empire, unlike Ulfric she was understanding, did not hate Ulfric for as she said "He bested my husband in fair combat" (As fair as using the voice is but eh), so it kinda just became a no brainer, it felt right for some reason, thus I became a Legate

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Nords are a stubborn people, it's no surprise they would be the first to oppose any sort of change. This is blatantly evident in how Dunmer are treated in Windhelm, distrust of the Khajiit caravans, forced to camp outside of the cities, and paranoia and fear of all things magic.
I've sided with the Stormcloaks once, on my very first playthrough, and the end result was one I eventually began to regret. Skyrim needs the Empire as much as any of the provinces of Tamriel do. Without the Empire to unify the land and the Legion to protect it another Great War will only end in defeat at the hands of the Dominion. The entire strict ban of Talos is the Stormcloaks' fault to begin with. This entire war is the result a series of poor choices on both the Empire and Ulfric's side during and after the liberation of Markarth and the Reach. 

The whole Talos cult thing and his rise to power and "ascension" into godhood seems very overblown. At best he could be a minor benevolent Daedra and Oblivion proves that a mortal can become a Daedra in the Shivering Isles DLC. Becoming a full god however seems highly unlikely as the 8 Divines or Aedra are the ones responsible for the creation of our universe and have given part of themselves for it to exist, which in turn Tiber Septim has not.

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2 hours ago, Skyrazer said:

Nords are a stubborn people, it's no surprise they would be the first to oppose any sort of change. This is blatantly evident in how Dunmer are treated in Windhelm, distrust of the Khajiit caravans, forced to camp outside of the cities, and paranoia and fear of all things magic.
I've sided with the Stormcloaks once, on my very first playthrough, and the end result was one I eventually began to regret. Skyrim needs the Empire as much as any of the provinces of Tamriel do. Without the Empire to unify the land and the Legion to protect it another Great War will only end in defeat at the hands of the Dominion. The entire strict ban of Talos is the Stormcloaks' fault to begin with. This entire war is the result a series of poor choices on both the Empire and Ulfric's side during and after the liberation of Markarth and the Reach. 

The whole Talos cult thing and his rise to power and "ascension" into godhood seems very overblown. At best he could be a minor benevolent Daedra and Oblivion proves that a mortal can become a Daedra in the Shivering Isles DLC. Becoming a full god however seems highly unlikely as the 8 Divines or Aedra are the ones responsible for the creation of our universe and have given part of themselves for it to exist, which in turn Tiber Septim has not.

You're forgetting about "Shezzarines". Cause Talos\Tiber Septim\Hjalti\Ysmir (choose one), Pelinal and several other individuals including Dragonborn protagonist are Shezzarines. Incarnations of Shor\Shezzar\Lorkhan (choose one). Surely not a full blown God, not a Daedra, but like a demigod instead.

Also, ef Stormcloaks. Their whole rebellion is orchestrated and secretly supported by the Dominion. And their racism only covers those who cannot fight back, as they eagerly take in even an Altmer Dragonborn, since we are power to be reckoned with and they surely could find some use of us. Dunmer refugees cannot really protect themselves like we could when treated poorly.

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Don't feel like going into a tirade, especially with only thumbs to type on my phone. The short of my perspective is that both the empire and the stormcloaks are organized and led by assholes, each with a few laudable goals and bad methods of trying to reach them.

 

As for the specific issue of Talos worship, reasons for/against considering him a deity and worthy of worship are irrelevant. Worship is a personal decision. If somebody wants to or doesn't, that's their call to make, not the empire's or the stormcloak's. The state doesn't have the right or the ability to mandate a worldview or particular set of religious convictions. People can and will believe whatever makes sense to them and will worship accordingly, even if their only viable option is to do it in their own home.

 

With that said, I'm not a fan of either. I can partly sympathize with both and at times find them both reprehensible. Rather than ally with either, I just massacre aldmeri patrols whenever I see them, because those guys are always condescending, threatening assholes towards me who aren't doing anybody any good.

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5 hours ago, Resinite said:

Don't feel like going into a tirade, especially with only thumbs to type on my phone. The short of my perspective is that both the empire and the stormcloaks are organized and led by assholes, each with a few laudable goals and bad methods of trying to reach them.

As for the specific issue of Talos worship, reasons for/against considering him a deity and worthy of worship are irrelevant. Worship is a personal decision. If somebody wants to or doesn't, that's their call to make, not the empire's or the stormcloak's. The state doesn't have the right or the ability to mandate a worldview or particular set of religious convictions. People can and will believe whatever makes sense to them and will worship accordingly, even if their only viable option is to do it in their own home.

With that said, I'm not a fan of either. I can partly sympathize with both and at times find them both reprehensible. Rather than ally with either, I just massacre aldmeri patrols whenever I see them, because those guys are always condescending, threatening assholes towards me who aren't doing anybody any good.

Religion on Nirn is a special case, in that mortals are often able to physically communicate and converse with deities: Talos not being one of them, as he was a simple mortal. However, there are cases of mortals becoming gods/deities ---

 

In Oblivion, the Hero turns into Sheogorath after the Shivering Isles DLC


And yes, most of the time if not all of the time, leaders are "assholes." Doesn't really matter who it is. They will always be seen as "assholes" because they have power, and people will always disagree with someone else. What's worse? Dumping hundreds of beheaded spies onto the floor of a palace, or conceding to another government and giving up some freedoms to save lives?

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I chose the Empire mostly because I was thinking taking into account the bigger picture. Of course it doesn't take part of the game, but the real a-holes are the Thalmors, and fracturing the Empire is just what the Thalmors wants. I mean, the Empire was extremely weakened. It was a time to stand together and what does Ulfric does? Starts a friggin Civil War. He didn't trained people or tried to fight the Thalmor. No, he just wanted to get ride of the Empire. Then the Thalmor would have completely razed his lands.

 

Plus, many of the Nords sounded waaay to nationalist and racist some times, and I didn't like Ulfric. And let's be honest...if Balgruuf sided with the Empire, then it was the right choice.

 

I made this decision more than a year ago, so I don't remember every detail and I do not have vast knowledge of the Elder Scrolls series.

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17 hours ago, Resinite said:

Rather than ally with either, I just massacre aldmeri patrols whenever I see them, because those guys are always condescending, threatening assholes towards me who aren't doing anybody any good.

 

11 hours ago, Nova S. Aurora said:

What's worse? Dumping hundreds of beheaded spies onto the floor of a palace, or conceding to another government and giving up some freedoms to save lives?

I think we can all agree the Thalmor are the real enemy here, not the Altmeri Dominion. Plenty of Altmer live in Skyrim and other provinces who have no desire to belittle or kill other races because of what they are. The Thalmor and the Blades are the ones who started the Great War to begin with, were it not for either of those factions, there wouldn't be a Civil war in Skyrim  and the Thalmor wouldn't have the power and influence in Tamriel they hold today.

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4 hours ago, Skyrazer said:

I think we can all agree the Thalmor are the real enemy here, not the Altmeri Dominion. Plenty of Altmer live in Skyrim and other provinces who have no desire to belittle or kill other races because of what they are. The Thalmor and the Blades are the ones who started the Great War to begin with, were it not for either of those factions, there wouldn't be a Civil war in Skyrim  and the Thalmor wouldn't have the power and influence in Tamriel they hold today.

Yes, the Thalmor, the current leading body of the Aldmeri Dominion, are the enemy. Before them, the Dominion wasn't that bad.

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Both sides technically have good and bad sides. Nords are racists and proud by nature (Since it was Skyrim the first place in Tamriel colonized by humans) they believe this land is the land of the ancestors. The Empire was already weakened when the great war started, they lost the Septim lineage in the Oblivion crisis, they where the ones who  keep the Empire strong. The Oblivion Crisis have consequences in long term, thanks to that the Thalmor made to take the power in summerset isles. Creating the new Aldmeri Dominion, and the Empire fell in a power struggle that cost their own strength. The Empire of the fourth era is a weak and maybe corrupt place, where their rule is Disputed, the Dominion is getting stronger again after the massacre of the great war (Who was terrible for both sides), to end up the Empire once for all. Tamriel needs the Empire, to stay united. To a posible invasion from others places (Especially from Akavir). So siding with them to keep Skyrim in their part is important for the uncoming battle. On the other Hand theres the Stormcloaks that can have Skyrim manpower to stand against the Dominion alone with no problem. Like the proud redguards who without the help of the Empire, defeated the dominion invasion and driven them out of Hammerfell. Maybe Tamriel needs a new empire, one that can be born from those provinces that mantain their Independency. Personally i choose the Empire side because the empire is a old power, that have more terrible moments before this (TES Arena history for example) but always survive and Skyrim need the Empire, as the Empire need Skyrim, to stand against the thalmor. Messer and Secunda disappearance is theorized that was  thalmors fault, to make the Elsweyr confederacy break and join the dominion. Like old allies (TESO lore explains it Dominion and Khajiit where allies back then). Khajiit where made from elves, and the thalmor want them to be back again elves, or at least that is a theory. Also Khajiit people are not happy with the Dominion, since they are a excellent assassins and Spies, they are and important resource for the Empire and the Dominion (Thats why i personally want a TESVI in Elsweyr, theres a lot of mysteries around the kitties homeland).

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Neither Bosmer nor Khajiit are very happy with the current state of affairs in the Dominion, or the Thalmor. But there's little they can do about it aside from rebel and seek aid from an Empire that can't even defend it's own borders. 

As we stand right now, the Last Dragonborn (player character from Skyrim) has a rightful claim to the throne of the Empire. Taking some events into account...

The Dark Brotherhood quest line, where you assassinate the Emperor himself, thus leaving the throne empty once more.

And the fact that the only true way to keep Nirn safe from the Daedra is to have a Dragonborn seated at the throne of the Empire...

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the player character from Skyrim become the new Emperor / Empress right as the Empire's on the verge of a new conflict with the Thalmor. That would certainly give the human races a huge boost in morale and could even turn the odds against the Dominion. In any case, a united Empire is a much more formidable enemy compared to a scattered conflagration of provinces, and what Ulfric's victory would most certainly lead things to.

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But the empire are bringing less freedom.
Like ban of Talso worship, people should be free to do so.
No wonder the Nords don't like outsiders bringing them all sorts of stupid laws and stuff, reminds me of the modern real world.
I've only sided with the Empire once.
Ulfric never appeared "racist", maybe at most dislike for foreigners who came and told them this and that, and he has some good points.
But i'll be starting a new game soon, as a elfish mage and i'll start reading some of the many books in game, should be some insight from them.

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